[BETA]Dom_Complex

[TheBladeRoden]

Go to http://tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=24 for download and lastest update info!

--

Alright, I'm finally able to make a thread on here. This map is a port of my unfinished HL2DM map which is in turn a port of a Perfect Dark map which is in turn a port of a Goldeneye map.

It's kind of half CP and half Battlefield type gameplay. Er, I'll refer you to the readme.

Objective:
Capture Control Points to gain more spawn locations for your team and in turn rid the enemy of theirs. First team to control all 7 Control Points wins!

Secondary Objective:
Holding Control Points over time adds to the Domination Score of your team. First team to 100% Domination wins!

Well, since is a beta, let's post the issues.

Issues I know about:
-Yeah, textures and lighting and all sorts of decorations are not done yet.
-No health or ammo items.
-Cubemaps may or may not be functioning.
-Optimization. yup, no hint brushes yet.

Issues that need testing:
-Size matters: Even after scaling from its HL2DM form by 140% it's still only the size of half of 2fort. That and a lot of the rooms are connected by narrow hallways, so it could become cramped, so testing on these factors will be needed.

-Time matters: Until I can start testing this, it's tough to tell if the timing of the CP captures and the round length will need tweaking. CP's bring in 0.5 points every 5 seconds. So a team holding 4 points the entire match will get to 100% domination in 4:10 minutes. It may need slowing down.

-Mobility matters: I was trying to balance the right height for the railings in this map, since in the console games you'd always have to walk around them, but in TF2 people don't take kindly to those hinderances. So I made them jumpoverable here, we'll have to see what that does to the gameplay. Also, I've been putting up noclips everywhere to prevent escaping soldiers and demomen, so I'll need people to test that.

So yeah, here's some screens anyway.

http://students.uww.edu/RodenJA10/complexpromo1.jpg
http://students.uww.edu/RodenJA10/complexpromo2.jpg
http://students.uww.edu/RodenJA10/complexpromo3.jpg
This one has the CP layout as you can see.

Download Link is:
http://tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=24

You can also find it in rotation on my server at:
75.134.31.20:27015

[spaceweasels]

I did a quick tryout. Interesting map. I like the score system you setup, and the gauges you have at the two base CPs.

During my quick test, I noticed that if one team owns no CPs, the players spawn in a room without any exits. Do you have spawn points near all the CPs, so when your primary CP is taken you can spawn at another CP? If your team captures a CP, while you are in the jail room, how do you leave (suicide)?

Some parts of the map could use being a bit bigger, but it is a good start. Good luck with it.

[Immortal-D]

Glad to see you finally got the seperate score system worked out :) I look forward to playing this.

[TheBladeRoden]

I did a quick tryout. Interesting map. I like the score system you setup, and the gauges you have at the two base CPs.

During my quick test, I noticed that if one team owns no CPs, the players spawn in a room without any exits. Do you have spawn points near all the CPs, so when your primary CP is taken you can spawn at another CP? If your team captures a CP, while you are in the jail room, how do you leave (suicide)?

Some parts of the map could use being a bit bigger, but it is a good start. Good luck with it.


I've been trying to figure out some solutions for what happens if a team loses all their spawns (which are tied to CP's) before the game ends.

1.By default when Blu (for example purposes) runs out of of active spawns, the game will have them spawn at ones owned by red. I guess this would motivate Red to take all the neutrals before going after Blue's last point, lest they get a flood of Blu behind their front lines, but it could be an annoyance.

2.Once Blu runs out of spawns, you'd best cap another one before you die, or else wait until someone else on your team fares better. Though then, suicide is the only way back out of jail. I think if it's possible, I can use a combination of proxy triggers and team filters to detect when no Blu players are left alive in the main arena, and then end the game swiftly, rather than wait until Red effortly caps the last point, or instead decides to be griefy and fart around until time runs out.

3.Make it so a team never loses their starting spawns. It's an easy solution, but I'm not particularly fond of it since it makes the map less freeform and fluid than what I was going for.

[spaceweasels]

I've been trying to figure out some solutions for what happens if a team loses all their spawns (which are tied to CP's) before the game ends.

1.By default when Blu (for example purposes) runs out of of active spawns, the game will have them spawn at ones owned by red. I guess this would motivate Red to take all the neutrals before going after Blue's last point, lest they get a flood of Blu behind their front lines, but it could be an annoyance.

2.Once Blu runs out of spawns, you'd best cap another one before you die, or else wait until someone else on your team fares better. Though then, suicide is the only way back out of jail. I think if it's possible, I can use a combination of proxy triggers and team filters to detect when no Blu players are left alive in the main arena, and then end the game swiftly, rather than wait until Red effortly caps the last point, or instead decides to be griefy and fart around until time runs out.

3.Make it so a team never loses their starting spawns. It's an easy solution, but I'm not particularly fond of it since it makes the map less freeform and fluid than what I was going for.

I do like the jail idea. One thing you could do is add a trigger_teleport for every CP in the jail room. Since you have 5 neutral, you'd need to create 10 trigger_teleports (since each will have a team filter). They each get enabled if you own the CP and get disabled if you don't own the CP.

So, if your team doesn't own any CPs, your stuck in jail until someone captures a CP.

[Intraman]

Another solution would be just be to have one definate spawn point for each team (maybe far away from any CPs)

[killanator]

ok, i havent tried this yet but i'll look around it a little later. my favorite goldeneye map ever!!! i loved this map back in those days

sounds like 4 minutes is a little to fast, the team should have enough time for 3-5 attempts at a cp before they have no hopes of winning. but again, timing on this map will come with some good playtesting.

about the railings, maybe you should make it so the only way to get over them is to double jump, sticky jump, or rocket jump? just a thought

[TheBladeRoden]

startin on the decorations!

http://students.uww.edu/RodenJA10/complexpromo4.jpg

[TheBladeRoden]

Alright, I updated it for a little more complete gameplay.

The game should now end when a team runs out of spawn and has no players left in the main arena.

still the same version number tho :p

http://students.uww.edu/RodenJA10/maps/dom_complex_b1.zip

[killanator]

add it to the server!!!

o speakin of the server why did it change names????

[TheBladeRoden]

So, anyone care to add some suggestions now?

[Shmitz]

Just off the top of my head:

1) Add score indicators to all of the points.
2) Reduce the number of capture points.
3) Reduce the number of tunnels and paths.
4) Widen most of the tunnels and paths (of the ones that you don't remove).
5) Brighten most of the areas.

[hacky]

Your map link's broken. I can't access it to try it out. :(

[TheBladeRoden]

Updated the map link

[hacky]

- It is very easy to grenade/rocket jump out of the map over the fence at blue spawn. Player clip brushes over the fences are an easy solution.
- The hallways are extremely cramped, and they're only one player wide. The height of the map is close to ideal TF2 scale though. For this, the only thing I can really suggest is to double the map size on the X-Y plane. This would allow for more open gameplay, and give you more room for the actual CP props. I can't see any place where a sniper would be useful as, and the thinness of the hallways impedes normal movement as is.
- The CP prop in the "V" catwalk room is floating in the middle of the water. If you can, either lower it to the water's floor or put a platform or something beneath it.
- The team indicator on the "blue lighted ramp" CP clips though the ceiling.
- The crates at the CP with pipes underneath the grate look weird in TF2 style.

Other than that, keep at it! What it boils down to for the size issue is that you're taking a map designed for 4 people, and are about to apply it to a 24+ player game. The score aspect is pretty interesting as well, once you iron out the gameplay the way you want it we'll see how it holds up in playtest.

[TheBladeRoden]

Abstract minimap-type symbols as inspired by Science
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/2913/iconsystemgx6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Snipergen]

WOOOOOOOOOT because of this layout i want to play the map. Looks very interesting!!!

[Youme]

Great map, played two rounds on it today

Lighting needs to be more even.
The CP in the water is 'floating' on the water, if you get under it you can see upwards through it.
I saw a demoman manage twice to get outside of the map.
It needs to be clear what is going on. we had a full server with people running around going 'WTF WTF WTF' Once we figured it out though we loved it
The passages are too narrow and some don't match up and its easy to get suck in them (not half in the brush but running into a lip that you can't quite see that stops you)
Put a 'domination points' meter at every CP so people know how badly they are being beaten/how well they are doing.
I think the timings are good
Some of the textures aren't very TF2 like.
You need some cameras set up so that when you join or die you don't see areas of the map your shouldn't be able to.

:) look forward to more polished versions

[Youme]

Apoligies about the double post but I have more to add :)
We have been running dom_complex on our server for a while now and its getting mixed thoughts so we have a thread over at www.coltsplayground.net about it, personally I like it but it's got a lot of people confused. I think that with the new CP symbols (only just got the link working) it will work loads better.
Perhaps if you announced who has the most domination points every minute or mintute and a half that might help clear up confusion in new players.

Here is the link to our thread, newer posts might be added at any time so check it everynow and then.
http://coltsplayground.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=454

[TheBladeRoden]

There are messages that say how many points each team has, but it won't work if you have Minimal HUD turned on, from what I hear. So to supplement I am going to put a score meter like this at each CP.

http://students.uww.edu/rodenja10/complexscorebar.jpg

I've also scaled the map 1.5 times, I think the main rooms will play well enough, but we shall have to see about the hallways/ramps still.

I lowered the cap times somewhat, before you could easily walk across the map to stop someone from capping, so these last two things should alter that.

Also, the current release has a broken jail system, so I fixed that.

I've also better playerclipped the map.

Things to do before next release:
Fix decorations broken by the size scaling + adding the some more visuals. This includes putting in more directions signs, even though the original spirit of the map was for it to be confusing, I'd suppose. ^.^

Fixing the indoor lighting. I'm suprised people are still trying to play the current build of the level, actually :D

So yeah, theres my progress report.

[Youme]

Awesome, sounds like its gunna get a lot better :thumbup:

[TheBladeRoden]

Well I was hoping to wait a little longer to put more more decorations in, but I guess I'll have to release Beta3 just so people stop playing Beta2.

http://tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=24

v 0.3 Changes

-Scaled map 150% to improve room.
-Added more lights
-Added holographic score meter to each Control Point
-Fixed a bug where the map didn't end once a team lost all the spawns
-Added some more decoration
-Added HUD icons and signs for improved navigation
-locked down with playerclips
-some suprises!

http://tf2maps.net/downloads/complexpromo3_UjH.jpg

[Youme]

Nice, forwarding this to our server admins now, I personally love this map but we took it out of rotation due to mass of n00bs saying "WTF I'm lost" Hopefully we can put it back in now without that happening again.:thumbup:

[Scotland Tom]

We played this map during game day yesterday and it actually surprised me how fun it was. It's a frantic race to run around and see if you can capture the points faster than the other team. My only complaint is that, while it needs to be confined, it just seems TOO cramped. Especially in areas like the CP with the pipes. It's nearly impossible to move with more than a few players in there.

At this point I don't know how difficult it would be, but my only suggestion would be to create some more open spaces. TF2 allows for some pretty cool movement options with some classes like the scout, demoman and soldier. Allow players to take advantage of that.

[Youme]

Played on it just now. much better
-You need a few more cubemaps, the reflections on certain surfaces are a bit out of place.
-You still need to sort out cameras so when you die you aren't just looking at sky.
-Getting lots of complaints now about one team not being able to spawn once the other team owns all the CPs I know this is intentional, but now everyone is whineing about it.
-The score holograms on the water CP come through the walkway above it, doesn't look very good.
-You need to keep working on textures and props, but you already know that.
-The doors are a little bit confusing, I spent quite a while thinking they were blocked off untill we capped certain areas. I was eventually forced backwards into one by an enemy and to my suprise it opened and let me through...

Love the map. Great fun.

[TheBladeRoden]

Love the map. Great fun.


Remakes of maps from other games are useless.

You confuse me, Youme.

P.S. Do you have any recorded demos of games being played?


Getting lots of complaints now about one team not being able to spawn once the other team owns all the CPs I know this is intentional, but now everyone is whineing about it.

Well the thing I implemented in b3 is that the map is supposed to end once a team is all dead and has run out of spawns, that way they aren't stuck in jail waiting around. Is this not working correctly?


You still need to sort out cameras so when you die you aren't just looking at sky.

I keep forgetting about that.

[Youme]

Is complex from another game? didn't realise. The new game style makes it worth it though, what I was really going for with "Remakes of maps from other games are useless." is maps that haven't got a similar gameplay mode to TF2, for example that horrible de_dust remake for TF2. (about to alter my sig to make that mroe clear)

about running out of spawns, when we played I was on the winning team each time, and we heard complains from the other team that they couldnt spawn. I shall endevour to find out.

Demo files, no, I haven't played with recording demo files I shal see what I can do. How big would a half hour demo file be?

I've only reminded you about those cameras, what, 3 times now :P

[Narkissus]

Its from 007 and perfect dark! How could you not know that! :sad:

[TheBladeRoden]

If Youme is indeed 17 then that would make him around 6 when Goldeneye came out. Poor culturally deprived youth these days...:(

Goldeneye version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHpO6cbchrI

Perfect Dark version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHnPrBr_00k

[Narkissus]

That brings back some memories...
But damn, how did i even know what the hell was going on in those.
I think im spoiled by graphics now.

[roninmodern]

Gah, complex was annoying(ly fun) in Goldeneye. I could enver find the enemies in it!

Are you going to include the hidden areas in the walls like the Goldeneye version had? Those would be great for spies or pyros.

[Youme]

my word, its identical. And I'm only 16 not 17. :) But I do remember playing perfect dark at some point, aswell as goldeneye.

[Voztron]

I like the idea, i just think the map is too confied and confusing to get around. I think the more detail you add the more people will be able to remember where things are. It is important you make each CP area unique but make sure it flows throughout the map.

[TheBladeRoden]

It took me all day but I finally got a real time scoreboard working

http://students.uww.edu/rodenja10/complexscorebar2.jpg

[Youme]

:D is all I can say

[Snipergen]

best map in goldeneye was facility, in perfect dark falicity ;)

[hacky]

Already brought these up in chat, but I'll say them again.
- If the game ends and the score is very close, both teams can win. Last night, blue won by reaching 100%, and during the victory period red reached 100% as well. Chat was hilarious. :)
- The secret area on the 2nd floor of the rectangle room, its door cannot close with a player inside. I was a sniper at the time.


Speaking of Facility, let's remake it as an attack/defend map. :)

[TheBladeRoden]

I wasn't awake for the latest playtest but apparently a couple of bugs were going on that warranted a hotfix asap.

so now I present dom_complex_b3c :D at the usual dl location.

v 0.3c Changes

Bug Fixes
-fixed blue players spawning inside a playerclip
-fixed a bug where teams with similar scores would both win the round.
-fixed a couple more geometry holes
-fixed a couple malfunctioning signs

Additions
-Added real time scoreboard instead of intervaled popups.
-Added more lighting
-Added observer cameras
-Tweaked vents and some more railings.
-Added 25% more to the CP capture time, trying to lessen the random ninja captures.

Thanks to Dirtyminuth and LittleMissPkunk for demo recording, there's only so much data you can collect playing it by yourself.

[TheBladeRoden]

ok another hotfix today, hopefully the last one

Updated 2/10/08 again

v0.3d Changes

Bug Fixes
-Fixed CP signs not showing up when RED team caps them initially
-More skybox leak fixes

[DrHaphazard]

Hey Roden, I absolutely love what you are doing with the scoring system in this map. I was wondering if I could use your system for my own map. The TFC map canalzone2 that I would like to remake had the exact kind of scoring system that you have implemented here.

I am especially impressed by your inclusion of a scoring device in the HUD. I figured that not having such a system was the biggest limitation for my map, since people would be unlikely to wanna play if they could not always see what the score is.

I realize that it probably took you hours and hours to get everything working correctly, so I would hate to borrow your work and them someone cry foul. So if you would rather I try and create my own scoring system I will understand.

Also, if it is actually possible to display stuff like this in the HUD, is it also possible to create other things, like boxes to encase the numbers? While the scoring system is very nice, the numbers are admittedly hard to see against some textures. Would be awesome to create a box and font style like the one that displays the score in CTF games.

Keep up the good work Roden.

[Youme]

-Added observer cameras
Hot diggety dang
:D

[TheBladeRoden]

Hey Roden, I absolutely love what you are doing with the scoring system in this map. I was wondering if I could use your system for my own map. The TFC map canalzone2 that I would like to remake had the exact kind of scoring system that you have implemented here.

I am especially impressed by your inclusion of a scoring device in the HUD. I figured that not having such a system was the biggest limitation for my map, since people would be unlikely to wanna play if they could not always see what the score is.

I realize that it probably took you hours and hours to get everything working correctly, so I would hate to borrow your work and them someone cry foul. So if you would rather I try and create my own scoring system I will understand.

Also, if it is actually possible to display stuff like this in the HUD, is it also possible to create other things, like boxes to encase the numbers? While the scoring system is very nice, the numbers are admittedly hard to see against some textures. Would be awesome to create a box and font style like the one that displays the score in CTF games.

Keep up the good work Roden.

Yeah, you can use the scoring system, though credit is always appreciated!

Sadly, between two different text entities, one's easier to read, and the other you can position anywhere on the hud, but no one to do both. Such is the way of the Valve.

[TheBladeRoden]

Alright, in response to the recent game day play tests, I'm working in some more gameplay changes (I'll get to the graphics one of these days, yet!)

1. Made the percentages go up 20% slower to provide more opportunity for conventional victories.

2. Made it so players won't spawn in a room with an enemy presence unless there's no alternative. (sounds simple, but god damn did that take all day to get working!)

[TheBladeRoden]

http://tf2maps.net/downloads/complexpromo4_z09_thumb.jpg (http://tf2maps.net/downloads/complexpromo4_z09.jpg)

I'm hoping this intro screen will be enough to clue new players in.

[lerlerson]

Yeah, I think that if a person can't figure out how to play the map after reading that starting screen, they probably shouldn't be playing 2.

Anyways, the map's looking great, keep up the good work. Played the latest beta a couple of times, great fun.

If this map becomes popular, you should make another Dom_map, and see if you can get Domination going as a custom gametype that everybody knows about, a la Fragyard. Except Fragyard sucked. Nevermind.

[Youme]

nice, you really are putting everything into this. NOW MAKE IT PRETTIER!!!!!!

then make another ;D

[TheBladeRoden]

Updated 2/29/08

v0.3e Changes

Bug Fixes
-Fixed cubemaps not working (hopefully)
-Hopefully fixed the menu objective text not showing up.

Feature Additions
-Made it so you don't spawn in a room with an enemy present unless there's no alternative (i.e. You're down to only one CP)
-Made it so players getting out of jail will have a temporary quick respawn
-Added menu photos to hopefully make objectives clearer.

Other Changes
-Changed all the HL2 textures to orange textures, so now it looks even uglier!
-Made the Domination points go up 20% more slowly to allow more time for conventional victories.

[DJive]

my biggest complaint is...

you still haven't finished it =p

but next to that, this spot seems a little to much for a Eng.

http://dumpedimage.com/uploads/1/dom_complex_b3e0002.jpg

[R3dRuM]

Dj gotz soem wall hax!

Kidding, but theres alot of secret spots for sentry's, because all other spots are crap. I think it balances the game, when i always played it was alway 5v5 scouts only, no body was any other class because they were considered useless. But engi does have some good spots.

[TheBladeRoden]

Right, well, I've forgone tweaking the gameplay for the time being and started working on getting rid of the orange rooms.

http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads/complexpromo5_OOr.jpg

[DJive]

D: Tell you what i didn't expect to see... wow, just wow.

Having played that more then a few times i wouldn't have imagined a room like that looks GREAT.

i love the floor/ceiling support, nice touch =p

[R3dRuM]

Looking very good roden, cant wait to play the next beta!

[Youme]

whooo! nice looking. Aslong as all those little sticky outy bits are playerclipped off so you can run past them smoothy that will be awesome!

:D

[R3dRuM]

new update pls?

[ryodoan]

Wow, that looks awesome. I cant wait to play it on a future game day. If you could get a version finished by friday that would be amazing.

[TheBladeRoden]

Do you really want me to upload a new version with only 3 rooms changed graphics-wise?

[R3dRuM]

more picx pls?

[ryodoan]

Well... I suppose not... but I look forward to playing this soon.

[Youme]

Do you really want me to upload a new version with only 3 rooms changed graphics-wise?

pics first, map later!

[TheBladeRoden]

Updated my jingoists!

v0.4 Changes
-Put some more visuals in there
-Added soundscapes
-Added new versions of the sign models that have gray skins
-Added a 45 second setup in hopes to curb scout rushing
-Added a 10 second grace period at the beginning of a round to switch classes without dying

[ChronoTriggerFan]

Looking spectacular. I think I only saw a couple hallways with orange textures in there :D Now the map looks like a TF2 map with all the outside details and such. I especially like the V area.

[l3eeron]

This map is going to pure mayhem on a 32 man server!

I saw it for the first time last night....

can't wait to run it on my servers :D

[kimangroo]

Ok just played this for half an hour or so on the playtest. My impressions:

Love the gameplay type, it works really well and makes for a very frantic, hectic action filled game. Hoping for some more DOM type maps in the future.

As I played this for the first time, layout was bound to be confusing. It was. It didn't matter too much because where ever I was, I was only 30 seconds away from some action somewhere. The problem is though that you would get warning alerts about cps being captured, but I had no idea where to go. Having 7 different icons for cps is also very confusing. Having something like A1, B1, C1, A2, B2, C2 and X for the central point might be easier to understand. Then very clear signs with arrows pointing from each cp to the next would help a lot. I get the feeling that with this gameplay type, a very simple layout with very distinctive and symmetrical cps would be best. Of course I've only played this map once, so I'm sure it would make more sense in time.

As for specifics, I didn't like the water below one of the cps very much. If you fell into it, you were basically dead as there is only the platform lift as an exit. Would be nice if there was some underwater tunnel escape route.

Also afaict players would spawn right next to/near cps at times. Think it would be better if the spawn points associated to cps were in seperate rooms to the cps. It's not much fun spawning and being blown up instantly. Or have a bunch of people spawn on top of you when you're not expecting it.

Only had a short playtest so can't think of anything else right now. Overall it was great and the most fun map I played tonight. Nice job!

[TheBladeRoden]

Thanks for the input, other things I am looking for is feedback on the setup timer and health and ammo placement.

[ChronoTriggerFan]

Regarding the setup timers, I think they should be a tad bit shorter. This way, a whole team can't spread out to 5+ capture points. when that happens, petty much everyone is on a capture point and won't bother attacking any other capture points, which leads to an unfair advantage at the beginning.

With ammo and health, there needs to be more. With this map type, attacks come sporadically and quickly. I found that when defending a point, I ran out of ammo FAST, and there was probably only one low health and ammo container on each section, so I had to leave an scavenge the less used walkways for ammo.

[TheDarkerSideofYourShadow]

Couple of things from today:

The vent leading away to from the Atrium, which you can stand full up in, then shrinks to crouch, and it seems like you have to stay crouched for a while. idk, just bugged me a little.

The other thing is the glass texture at the bridges, almost blew myself up on it because I didn't realize it was glass.

And then he thingy below the floor here.
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l35/TheDarkestShadow_2006/TF2/dom_complex/dom_complex_b40000.jpg

[Youme]

The other thing is the glass texture at the bridges, almost blew myself up on it because I didn't realize it was glass.
It never ceases to amaze me how many players attempt to shoot though glass...

Well I've not yet played _b4 but I will tonight and I have high expectations, I love this map and am really looking forward to the new details you've got.
Kimangroo - I learnt the layout of this map the first few times I played but was still slightly confused by it, then the cpature point logos came and everything was brilliant :D If you add a few wall signs here and there with the same logos that would help players further but I don't really think it needs it

there are setup timers now!?!? :angry: I can't see how that will help gameplay, but I'll keep an open mind

[ryodoan]

The setup timers are nice, they give everyone a chance to load the game before the gameplay actually starts.

[TheDarkerSideofYourShadow]

It never ceases to amaze me how many players attempt to shoot though glass...


Heh, Youme, I had seen someone standing there in an earlier round, firing down at us, so I tried the same. Its breakable glass, I just didn't realize it was there until a rocket went off in my face :blink:

[Youme]

well I saw the breakable glass in the same circumstances you did and I realised it was there so :p

Loving the new details they make it really awesome. I can't say I liked the startup timer, it feels like a lost cause because players can still attack each other in it and its just a mess, it was far better without it imo.

You've got the problem with the holograms being visible below the cap points as DSOYS said (can a mod shorten his name for us?) and one area (pictured) felt like you could jump over the railing into the room beyond, you need just a little bit more of a visual disconnection between play area and non play area
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7471/domcomplexb40000ou1.jpg
Epic, now that other guy is making a map with your prefab I love you even more, you've made in my opinion the only custom gametype that even remotely works.

GOOD WORK!

[Colt Seavers]

i have no problem finding my way about - simply cos i've played it since you started developing it. i love it - its an awesome gameplay style which makes a genuine change of pace and i can recount many many epic battles on 12v12 in the Playground.

today i was genuinely impressed by the improvements you've made - love new glass bits and everthing is generally looking much purdier. agree with Youme on the set up - confused me - maybe i'll get used to it. i know it allows all to join the server - but that's being pessimistic - once all have played once they'll join as quick as anyone and the frantic nature of the map lends itself to being thrown in there.

[ryodoan]

My only complaint is a personal one, this map is kinda crappy for sentries due to its fast gamepace and the quick point turnover. Nobody really holds a point long enough for me to get set up, and I think some recent changes made Middle point overlook area not as easily held by a sentry.

If you review the Source TV files I am sure you will see my one attempt, and several other peoples attempts to set up a sentry over the middle point and the subsequent failures.

[l3eeron]

Ya it could use some kind of incentive for engineers. Def need to have a good defendable perch or ledge at the 1st/last CPs. Maybe even 1 for each side on that middle point too.

It kind of ends up, us chasing each other around in circles. If an engy could get a foot hold on that middle it would give people a way to win (or loose).

I really want to see a team actually get dominated. Where everyone gets killed after they loose all their CPs. Without a good SG up somewhere I think it's going to be real hard.


Also, is this map available for public play? We're getting our "payload" server ready over at the ville.... wanted to toss this map on until goldrush comes out. Is that cool?


PS - I really like the change in how the map starts.... you can get out to the CP's before the setup timer unlocks the CPs. Good idea for a nice change :D

[VelvetFistIronGlove]

The map is playing really well. I'm no longer getting lost, because I've played on it enough now, and it's quite tight. It's a great map for scouts and soldiers; less good for most other classes I've found. I actually significantly beat my previous top points, captures, and kills for soldier and scout on this map, because it's quite easy to stay alive. This seems to be more of an issue with the domination mode though; I noticed that those classes seemed to be very good on bootcamp as well.

So my only remaining complaints about the map are:

1. I still don't like the doors; they're not very TF2ish, and definitely a barrier for new players; also, all of them lead into dead-end health/ammo closets except for the one by the water CP. If they were consistently closets I think they would be more acceptable. Also the fact that you can build sentries behind them that can still shoot out is not nice, but since engineers have such a hard time otherwise on this map we might let that pass :D

2. The vent. It's the only place you actually have to crawl; and the rest of the map is so fast-paced, that that feels really slow. Since part of the vent is already high enough to walk through, couldn't you make the rest of it that little bit higher?

[Narkissus]

The map is playing really well. I'm no longer getting lost, because I've played on it enough now, and it's quite tight. It's a great map for scouts and soldiers; less good for most other classes I've found. I actually significantly beat my previous top points, captures, and kills for soldier and scout on this map, because it's quite easy to stay alive. This seems to be more of an issue with the domination mode though; I noticed that those classes seemed to be very good on bootcamp as well.

So my only remaining complaints about the map are:

1. I still don't like the doors; they're not very TF2ish, and definitely a barrier for new players; also, all of them lead into dead-end health/ammo closets except for the one by the water CP. If they were consistently closets I think they would be more acceptable. Also the fact that you can build sentries behind them that can still shoot out is not nice, but since engineers have such a hard time otherwise on this map we might let that pass :D

2. The vent. It's the only place you actually have to crawl; and the rest of the map is so fast-paced, that that feels really slow. Since part of the vent is already high enough to walk through, couldn't you make the rest of it that little bit higher?


I think those points you talked about are what actually make this map "complex" of perfect dark and goldeneye fame, without those it would not be so nostalgic, i personally really like those parts of the map because i had so much fun before on complex in the other games. And without the little touches it wouldnt be the same.

[ryodoan]

as for the comment about Soldiers / Scouts but no other class, I have to say that I had lots of fun on Bootcamp as an engineer just because since the map was bigger and there were so many more routes, a single sentry could really have fun building sentries on different points to hold people up.

I think complex is smaller than Bootcamp with fewer routes and more open capture points making it harder to hold onto the points and making for faster game play.

[VelvetFistIronGlove]

I think those points you talked about are what actually make this map "complex" of perfect dark and goldeneye fame, without those it would not be so nostalgic, i personally really like those parts of the map because i had so much fun before on complex in the other games. And without the little touches it wouldnt be the same.
Of course, but I (and no doubt many other TF2 players) never played goldeneye; so my view of the map is based on how it plays now, with no rose-colored nostalgic glasses :P

[Youme]

Indeed I base all opinions nostalgia free, although I have played this map in perfect dark I believe, maybe goldeneye as well, I have no recolection of it what so ever.
So my nostalgia free reaction to this map is: I freaking love it!!!

[TheDarkerSideofYourShadow]

well I saw the breakable glass in the same circumstances you did and I realised it was there so :p

Therefore the reason is that I am, in fact, retarded. As such, my suggestion should be ignored.

You've got the problem with the holograms being visible below the cap points as DSOYS said (can a mod shorten his name for us?)

Yes, sadly I've had comments about the name in game. I've been using it since Natural Selection came out. Prior to that I was D^3, which was short for D-Day Dan. Funny, I switched from a ridiculously short name to a horribly long one.

[TheBladeRoden]

The purpose of the setup timer was to allow classes like Heavies and Engineers to move out to CP's and set up shop before the otherwise scout rush.

I've only played a couple games that resulted in the jailbreak aspect coming into play. But it seems to happen with more frequency in bootcamp. So I'm guessing the only way I can affect those is to either scale the level up even more or start fiddling with the spawn times.

And yes I could use complex on all the servers I can get.

And the point of the crouchy vents was to keep the travel time of the 3 paths between D and B roughly equal.

[TheBladeRoden]

And for the record, Ryodan, on the March 16th Gameday, there were 82 Sentry kills on complex. So I think it must be somewhat suitable for Engies.

[Shmitz]

I think the vent should be consistent all the way through: either crouch all the way through or walk all the way through. Switching it up in the middle is frustrating when going from walking to "oh, I'm stuck on something, why can't I get through here? oh, that's right, I have to do a funny little crouch thing to... *gibbed*".

[Youme]

I don't really get anoyed with having to crouch, or even having to only crouch or part of it, but I do feel that changing midway is, well, odd. its a bit unrealistic and sticks out a bit.

[tedrock]

i have to agree with Shmitz. i'd rather it just be smooth all the way through. maybe just a little angled no clip to prevent from getting stuck on the lip.

also a no clip is needed here... just for ascetics i guess

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff48/thetedrock/dom_complex_clip2.png
got stuck real good under that corner of the top create

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff48/thetedrock/dom_complex_clip.png
i donno if you intended this but when you drop down you can get on the top of that door frame

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff48/thetedrock/dom_complex_light.png
and for a new mapper how do you intended light this vent more... practically?

[Snipergen]

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff48/thetedrock/dom_complex_light.png
and for a new mapper how do you intended light this vent more... practically?

Put a wire that goes trough the vents on the ground and place a light bulb on the ground on the side of the vent, makes it believable

http://exploreankit.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/lightbulb1.jpg

[ryodoan]

Or even better, a light like this:
http://www.cyber-bridge-marine.com/images/Imtra-Lighting-engine-room/4500_Utility_Light_150.jpg

Or
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/3598/utilitylightwi1.png

I think they would fit in a vent setting.

[tedrock]

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/3598/utilitylightwi1.png

that would look good but a very dim red... possibly flashing.


oh yah there's another area in the water. it needs to be like 1 unit deeper. currently while in the water there you touch the bottom and if you duck your screen is half in and half out and makes the audio switch back and forth between water and non-water sounds and it sounds all messed up. i'll take a screen shot later.

[Youme]

.....and it sounds all messed up. i'll take a screen shot later.

/me facepalm

a screenshot of a sound?:confused1:

[ryodoan]

/me facepalm

a screenshot of a sound?:confused1:

Of the area where the problem is I would imagine... heh :001_rolleyes:

[Bonafide]

to light a vent just use those tiny spotlight props from 2fort.

[TheBladeRoden]

No vent lighting changes this version, sorry guys :(

Just radical gameplay experimentations

Updated 4/27/08

v0.4b Changes

-Lowered setup time to 30 seconds
-Increased cap time to 10 seconds
-Made it so owning more CP's reduces your spawn time
-Changed Red base to the Pipe Room

[ryodoan]

Made it so owning more CP's reduces your spawn time

Not sure if I really like this change... I get aggravated enough when my team sucks, I dont need to be reminded of it constantly by the fact that the enemy is capturing all the points because I am constantly dead.

[ChronoTriggerFan]

-Changed Red base to the Pipe Room

That should help get more traffic there :D

[TheBladeRoden]

Holy Crap changing Red's Base sure created a lot of bugs. Hope you all forgive me. Here's what i saw so far.

Map thinking Blue has 1 less CP's than it actually does. Thus sending them to jail when they have 1 CP.

Red still spawning at the V Bridges when they don't any points.

Any others you saw post here.

[Vander]

I REALLY want to like this map! My one and only problem (aside from the bugs you mentioned, which will get fixed I am confident) is that it's so confusing to figure out which control point is which. I look at the HUD and see a point getting capped by the enemy and have no idea how to get there aside from running around and getting lucky. If there were someway to make it more recognizable where you are going or trying to get to at least, this would be a very fun map.

[Youme]

I'm, a complex veteran. I have no problem finding my way around anymroe :D

[ryodoan]

I REALLY want to like this map! My one and only problem (aside from the bugs you mentioned, which will get fixed I am confident) is that it's so confusing to figure out which control point is which. I look at the HUD and see a point getting capped by the enemy and have no idea how to get there aside from running around and getting lucky. If there were someway to make it more recognizable where you are going or trying to get to at least, this would be a very fun map.

Thats the thing though, its not so much about stopping the other team from capturing points, its more about just going to the first uncaptured point you can and capturing it yourself. If you happen to stumble upon a capture in progress then by all means interupt it.

My game plan until I learn DOM maps is to run around as a pyro trying to capture as many points as possible. If I run into an enemy then I just set them on fire. I like it. heheehehe

[TheDarkerSideofYourShadow]

Besides the spawn issues that you talked about, it seemed fine. I would just change/alter the texturing on the roofs of the building where blue starts, the black line is a little repetative.