[TIP] Don't get hung up on the details

[Alexforcefive]

So I was playing Granary last night, and I noticed this:

http://sociopathic.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/tf2/granaryblue.jpg

The point I'm trying to make is, it really doesn't matter if everything lines up perfectly. People just take a general idea from the decoration of your map. No-one notices stuff like this except for our elite group of mappers :)

[TheBladeRoden]

Alt message: Don't lose sweat over trying to be as good as the Valve mappers, you might be already.

[drp]

a good layout > map detail

thats what i think anyway.

[Intraman]

Agreed. Function over theme, and playablity over prettiness.

[Open Blade]

I can recall playing on many maps where the detail work was fricken mind blowing awesome, only it was a total waste because you never saw any of it because everybody was always at one area of the map........can you say choke point anybody? Yes, details are great, but if the flow of your map sucks (in other words, try and make a few different routes in all areas) all the pretty work you did will be a total waste.

[Armadillo of Doom]

That's not to say that details are a total waste however. I was playing Dustbowl, and noticed a rocket in the backround, belching smoke and such, ready for take-off. I also just recently noticed on granary that the first/final cap is actually a missile silo, and the point itself is directly underneath said rocket. Seeing those things just made me smile, and made the map more enjoyable.

[MacNetron]

With details it is probably like: it makes a good map better, but not a bad map good.
What I know for sure after playing some custom maps (to prepare myself for mapping): don't do too much details, because at a certain moment it is just cluttering the view.
Difficult thing is to get the balance right :)

[Snipergen]

yeaaahhh but... do make it pretty. Im that guy that bashes if it looks ugly :p

[Scoobingsthe2nd]

agreed. Function is more important than details... but if it looks like crap I'm not going to want to play it.

[Half-Life_Maniac]

To be honest, the VALVe maps (in all games) are no doubt well designed, but their mapping methods are sometimes not all what they could be.
You'll often see brushes intersecting, splitting, texture misalignments and all sorts.

I'm quite maticulous in my mapping, but then as a result, I take for-bloody-ever to get anything made...

[Logo]

With details it is probably like: it makes a good map better, but not a bad map good.

Yeah that pretty much sums it up. Details/visuals can make a good map better (or Worse!) but a bad map won't be a good map no matter how nice it looks.

[Fragimus_Max]

Adding details are fine, as long as those details are purposeful.

For example: Adding boxes to an area of your map, simply as a decoration, is silly when you can, instead, add them in a way that contributes to the flow of the map.

[Kirko]

To be honest, the VALVe maps (in all games) are no doubt well designed, but their mapping methods are sometimes not all what they could be.
You'll often see brushes intersecting, splitting, texture misalignments and all sorts.

I'm quite maticulous in my mapping, but then as a result, I take for-bloody-ever to get anything made...

Dustbowl for TF2 I HATE! I love to be engineer on red but for TF2 it is just horrible. U can't build a tele entrance, exit, level 3 sg, and a dispenser before the 55sec. is up. yes 55sec. u can move at the start until 5sec. have gone by which leaves u with under a min to build before the gate opens and a ubered hw takes out ur lvl 1 sg. in TFC i could get teleport up, grab grenades, build a lvl 3 sg, and a dispenser, and rotate my sg b4 the gate opened.

[Pegg]

yea, but sentry guns aer now totally imba compared to what they used to be. and it is very possible to get a TP entrance, dispencer and L3 SG up in 55 seconds

[Nizzem]

It is possible to get a lvl 3 sentry, teleporter and dispenser up in 55 seconds you just need to pick up ammo/metal and not depend on the dispenser.

[Snipergen]

true, just build dispenser first, than i get metal, build a tele, wait for new metal, build sentry and i get metal from the dispenser to build lvl2/lvl3

[jahrain]

My 2 maps that I have made so far (cp_desertfortress and ctf_convoy[unreleased]) started at 2 completely different angles.

With desertfortress, I started with a highly thought out basic map layout and design on paper, and then struggled trying to wrap a visual theme around the map design. The result was a map that doesn't have much visual quality or purpose to it's architecture, but plays extremely well and is very balanced. The few clan server admins that I tested out the map with strongly agree even though it could still use a few tweaks. The trade off was that is not that popular because it doesn't have the visuals to make it stick out or sell really well like other maps, for example highly played maps like castle which have visuals that stand out.

With convoy, I started with a visual idea and theme (2 rocket carriers racing across the desert in a constantly moving map) and started trying to fit a map design around the visual theme. My prediction is that this map might sell allot better than desertfortress because of its visual theme that sticks out. The gameplay might not be as intense, but it might end up being played allot more.

There is really a hand in hand trade off between going with strong visuals, or a well though out layout. We all have a finite amount of time, and a limited amount of talent so we tend to distribute our efforts biased in one of those directions. I spent months working on the map layout for desert fortress on paper, long long before I even touched hammer, so much less of my limited effort went into the actual building of the map.

[alehm]

Devil is in the details. A bad map can't be compesated with details but a good map will stand out above its contemperaries with well executed details.

In the end, its all who builds a better house of cards, so to speak

[Mindless]

Umm yeah. Just to add insult to injury, try looking at the "Details" in hydro! And I'm not just talking about "details" such as an overlay here. There are two very obvious NoDraw brushes in plain view, that no one else seems to ever notice. One nodraw texture gives the blu team an advantage at one corner (lets you look through the wall). If you want, ill post the snapshots of em, but ill let you try to find em.
(1) is in one of the spawns in the middle
(2) one is from the dam area, entering a tunnel turning to the right, you can see through the wall.
Not exactly details, but still, no one ever notices.

[YM]

Also in hydro I just noticed a blatant displacement missalignment...

[Rock]

Playability is what I first notice in a new map, along with the general eye appeal. It's only after extended play do the details come to life. Until then, I'm too frickin' busy trying to keep from getting shot or back stabbed...

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j207/skipatc/Gamer.png

[Deadeye2007]

Convoy is a perfect example of a beautiful map that just doesn't play all that well. I agree that gameplay is #1, details second.

[Spacemonkeynz]

I was spectating though goldrush earlier, the details in that are amazing. I saw so many things I never noticed before.

When playing you don't notice the details beyond the playable area, even if it is a see though fence. The stuff on the other side just doesn't register when your playing. However i'm sure it would be noticeable if it wasn't there.


I have to say I disagree with the title of this thread, It is ok to get "hung up on the details" as long as you go about it the right way.
Sure, it's important to have a playable map, very important.

Gameplay and details shouldn't be ranked as one being better then the other. They both are important for different reasons.

Mapping can be viewed as an artwork, as well as providing a good play area for players.

Imo, goldrush is a work of art as well as an awesome map.

[DJive]

the thing with Valves maps which a lot of people dont seem to get is that the gameplay area of the map is normally very bland, some props here and there, etc..

the sky box is where valve puts all the work into, the unaccessible areas is were they focus most detail into.

[Sgt Frag]

I'd agree with DJive on that last comment. The gameplay areas do tend to be fairly plain.

This is all about gameplay. Start throwing alot of props in there and players start getting caught on them. You get stuck you die or miss a kill, that sucks.
There is always no-clip but that can get annoying to because you can't hide in those tight little areas you think you can, as a spy that can be deadly.

I've also played quite a few maps for hours and never noticed details like rocket smoke, ect... The skybox with awesome cliffs and buttes... Usually those come into view when a rocket blasts you into space, or you are spectating waiting to spawn.

Those were the times were I thought "Damn, this is a really sweet looking map". During gameplay everything is about staying alive.

Suspension of disbelief. That's what games are about. You gotta feel like you are there, so much in fact that you don't notice these cool details.
SFX are always best when you don't know they are SFX.

[mtv22]

When I very first started map I always thought it was essential for things to line up perfectly, and I hated walls that weren't perfectly straight or ground levels that weren't all exactly the same. I've realized now that it doesn't really matter, people don't care and the difference between a 16 unit wall and a 20 unit wall isn't a big deal.

[re1wind]

Don't get hung-up on detail, but don't use that as an excuse for sloppy, or lazy mapping.

Solution? Use 16 as your smallest grid size when first making a map. You don't need any more accuracy for detailing, you've just started! The *only* exception is when placing game-critical props (doors, cp models, payloads, etc), and then use Ctrl - B to make it snap to the current grid.

Also, always, *always* line up your walls, floors, levels, etc. in the local area. Not doing so from the second you start mapping can cause vicious /RAGE* later on when you're tweaking/styling your map and bump into dozens of void leaks, dozens of world/detail/brush lines making quick editing difficult, etc. Personal experience over 3 years with Hammer.


*see Left4Dead

[Numerous]

To be honest, the VALVe maps (in all games) are no doubt well designed, but their mapping methods are sometimes not all what they could be.
You'll often see brushes intersecting, splitting, texture misalignments and all sorts.

I'm quite maticulous in my mapping, but then as a result, I take for-bloody-ever to get anything made...

If only you were so "maticulous" in your spelling. ;)

Also, always, *always* line up your walls, floors, levels, etc. in the local area. Not doing so from the second you start mapping can cause vicious /RAGE* later on when you're tweaking/styling your map and bump into dozens of void leaks, dozens of world/detail/brush lines making quick editing difficult, etc. Personal experience over 3 years with Hammer.
*see Left4Dead
When I read that, the first thing that I thought was that you were referring to the way a tank acts when he spots the survivors.

[Cornish Gamehen]

So the point is, don't go overboard on details, but don't ignore them, you've got to find the right balance.

[VelvetFistIronGlove]

If only you were so "maticulous" in your spelling. ;)
TIP: Don't get hung up on the details. :lol:

[The Political Gamer]

Alt message: Don't lose sweat over trying to be as good as the Valve mappers, you might be already.I lol'd at this.

[Cornish Gamehen]

Alt message: Don't lose sweat over trying to be as good as the Valve mappers, you might be already.

Valve's finest crack team of mappers are coming round to your house with a bucket. And they will use EVERY drop of sweat against you. :P