TF2Maps.net Mapping Contest #6: (A)Symmetry CP

[Ravidge]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/TF2Maps/contest_head.png


Welcome to TF2Maps.net's major Control point contest. It's time to get creative again.
Standing on metal plates to secure victory has been a central part of Team Fortress 2 since it's release, and it has proven a strong and reliable method even to this day.
Instead of picking just one gamemode for the competition you are free to do (almost) any control point oriented map. Your choice of layout decides what other maps you compete against.

Presenting the Asymmetry vs Symmetry Control point contest.

Rules:

Must be a Control point map.
No Arena or KotH.
No medieval mode.
Must follow the same game mechanics/scoring system as set by official maps.
You are allowed to increase/reduce the number of control points.
You are allowed to edit the control point capture order/prerequisites (elaborate gp-style maps).
No custom modes such as Domination or similar.
On Attack/Defend maps: Blue attacks and Red defends.
No Collaborations
Must be able to spawn 32 players (16 per team)
Maximum of two entries per author.
No straight out copying or stealing content from other maps, official or otherwise. Inspiration and ideas are good, just make sure you built it yourself for this competition.
Maps that have been started but has not yet been released could enter the competition after approval from me (Ravidge). - updated!
You can't recycle your previous maps into this competition. - updated!


Other things that should be mentioned to avoid confusion:

Custom content is allowed, All publicly released content will not count towards collaboration, more than 'a few' from a single modeler specifically for your map will, the first 'few' wont be. This will be enforced on a case by case basis.
"Publicly released content" means content that is available for download and use by anyone, at least one month before the submission deadline. - updated!
You may submit multi stage and multi round (TC) maps.
TF2M Staff and Officers are allowed to win, Contest judges are not.
A forum thread is not required to participate (but encouraged).



Deadline:
The contest will end on May 25th, 8:00 pm UTC (Check your timezone!) (http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=25&month=5&year=2011&hour=20&min=0&sec=0&p1=0). Submissions will open 1 week before the deadline.
After the deadline closes there will be a 72 hour grace period to fix any critical errors and mistakes. This will be handled on a case by case basis. The grace period is not "extra time", it's a safety net to prevent crashing servers and broken map logic.

Late entries will not be accepted! Make sure you plan ahead and avoid the risk of having 5 months of work get disqualified.


Judgment Procedure:
Eligibility: Maps will be checked and disqualified when the contest submission deadline ends if they do not meet the rules.

Judging Categories
There are 5 judging categories, each one has a different weight on the final score of the map.
The Gameplay and Balance categories account for 25% each, Aesthetics and Performance account for 20% each while Technical is 10%.

Gameplay (25% of final score) - Does the map have a good flow, is the layout intuitive? Are spawn timers correctly adjusted to create battles in the right areas? Is the map scaled properly, are the walk times between points of interest too long or short?
Balance (25%) - Do RED and BLU stand an even chance of winning the map? Is there a fair contest for each control point? Can each class hold their own in the map? Is any one overpowered or underpowered? Is there a good distribution of health and ammo kits?
Aesthetics (20%) - Is the map intricate and beautiful? Is there a high level of polish to the map? Does the map fit the style of TF2? Do the individual detailing choices make the map feel put together, or discordant? Is the environment visually pleasing?
Performance (20%) - How well the map is optimized. Framerate, filesize, etc.
Technical (10%) - Does the map have bad clipping? Does any spawns leave you stuck in the floor/wall? Does capture blocking work properly for all CPs?


First component - Popular Vote

One thread will be made where votes will be posted to. The first post will contain a template vote which voters will copy and paste as their reply, changing the numbers to reflect their opinions.
In that thread, voters will have the opportunity to grade each map for all categories, from 1-10, as well as giving a short summary if they wish.
The results of each vote, after the judging time is over, will be calculated together to get an average rating for each map.
Users MAY NOT grade their own maps.
The goal of the popular vote is to get an overall rating for each map based on everyone's impression of how fun it is. It prevents judges' votes from counting too much, and makes sure the winners are indicative of our entire community's feelings.


Second component- Judges' votes

There will be a panel of judges. Anyone who feels they have the expertise to provide a higher-than-standard level of feedback should send a PM to me (Ravidge) with a statement about what you feel qualifies you before May 10th. Once the site staff have decided on whether or not to accept your application you'll be contacted and will gain access to a new judges-only forum when signed in.
Judges' own entries will be disqualified from winning; they will receive marks but will not be eligible to place in the final rankings. Judges may review their own maps but their rating will not be calculated into the map's total score.
Judges will playtest each map considerably on their own, via the tf2maps.net server or private servers.
Each judge will rank each category on a scale of 1-10 and include a write-up of their decision making process per map. The judges' ratings will be averaged for each map. Each step of this process will be publicized.
The goal of the judges' vote is to get a professional look at each map, with a high degree of scrutiny that the mapmakers can use to improve their skills in the future. It prevents a tyranny of the majority, wherein people vote on maps in a popularity contest, thus making the rankings fairer.
The judges' average ratings will be multiplied by a factor of .5, and the popular average ratings by a factor of .5. This means a 50%-50% split. They will be added together to achieve the maps' final ratings.
The maps' ratings will be published, the ineligible maps (like the judges') removed, and then the final rankings posted. The final rankings will determine the winners.



Prizes:
As always, spoils for the champions.
There will be First, second and third places for both categories of maps.

First Place
3 months of TF2Maps.net donor status.
Steam game of your choice.

Second Place
3 months of TF2Maps.net donor status.
Valve store Poster bundle.
1 x random class TF2 keychain + 1 x TF2 card pack

Third Place
1 month of TF2Maps.net donor status.
1 x random class TF2 keychain + 1 x TF2 card pack


Preemptive F.A.Q:
Q: Multi stage and single stage in the same competition, how is that going to work?
A: Hopefully it will work just fine. There's no doubt that a multi stage map takes a lot more time to complete and polish than a single stage map. In a competition like this we are looking for high quality maps to be produced and as such you should know that entering a multi stage map will require a lot of hard work on your part, you will compete against single stage maps created in the same timespan. It's been proven in past competitions that it's very much possible to create great multi stage maps in roughly the same timespan as this competition.

Q: I want to make a multi stage map for TF2 and this competition seems great! I don't think I can finish a map of that size in time though. Can I cut off one of my stages and submit that as a entry in the competition?
A: Yes. Don't give up ahead of time though, a complete multi stage map can offer players a lot of variation and gameplay experience, which smaller maps can't.

Q: I can submit two entries, right?
A: Yes, but two entries from the same author must be significantly different. You are not allowed to take half your asymmetrical map and flip it and enter it into the symmetrical division too.
Submitting two cut off individual stages from the same map is possible, but as stated earlier, they need to be significantly different from each other, in gameplay, design and aesthetics.

Q: Why can't I do Arena?
A: Arena maps are tiny and the gameplay does not focus around the control point.

Q: Why can't I do KotH?
A: KotH maps tend to be very small and 99% of the time they are symmetrical. It's also obvious that all the entries in the competition would be koth maps if they were allowed.

Q: Why can't I do Medieval mode?
A: Maps of this type was never considered when designing the contest. It's basically a very selective weapon filter and it alters the gameplay so much that it can't be considered just a mode for the control point setup. It's more like an alternative to the game TF2.

Q: How can maps with different gamemodes be judged fairly against each other?
A: With a lot of judges and voters individual gamemode preferences won't matter and quality maps will rank higher no matter what their mode may be.
This is all theory craft of course, but even so we have made the decision to take this gamble to provide a more dynamic and free spirited competition for everyone.

Q: Can I make a symmetrical attack/defend map?
A: Yes.

Q: Can I make a Asymmetrical linear 5cp map?
A: Yes.

Q: Can I make a gp-style map but with a (A-B-C-D)>(E-F-G)>(H) capture layout instead of just (A-B)>(C)?
A: You can. But I'd suggest not diverging too far from the default/official modes unless you're really confident about your map idea.

Q: This thing is scheduled to run for 5 months? That is a long time!
A: I extended the planned deadline by a month because I know people will call for an extension later on, this way you don't have to go through all that trouble. Unless there is a major breakdown in hammer or similar there won't be any time extensions!

Q: Who do I contact if I have questions about the contest?
A: Ravidge, through forum PM.

Real F.A.Q:
Q: Can I have a modeler make many props for my map and then release them exactly 1 month before the deadline, to make them count as publicly released?
A: No, The "No collaboration" rule is still in effect no matter when you release your content.
You may still request a 'few' (there is no set number, deal with it) props to be made specifically for your map, This is to help people who can not model props themselves. Please stop trying to use this as a loophole for collaboration.

Q: Can I make 3CP a/d like the artpass map?
A: Yes.

[umbratile]

<3
Time to finally get back in business.

(Argh, damn this WYSIWYG editor, makes me screw up the colors)

[Jetamo]

Good luck and have fun.

[Cerious]

Ooh, a new contest!

[Fr0Z3n]

Alright...

"Lets have a go at it!"

I'm in.


EDIT:EDIT: I'm stupid, missed a line

[J4CK8]

WOOHOO!!! Now to decide which gamemode to make my map for...

Also, honestly...second place prize sounds better to me...Maybe becuase there are rarely any games on steam I want, but also the price of shipping things from Valve store to UK would make the overall price of second place prize higher than most games I want.

[BrokenTripod]

If I've been working on an A/D CP map for like 3 years now but will completely change the layout does that still work for this contest? (Probably not completely change, but make much larger and whatnot)

cp_activate, by the way.

I didn't see anything about using maps we're already working on in the rules, but I might have missed it.

EDIT: I suppose I should PM Ravidge huh?

[Tech]

Woah, wouldn't even notice this one :) Atleast something new to do, hopefully to get over my mapping block.

[Bermuda Cake]

This time I'll at least finish a map :D

[StickZer0]

Screw detailing pl_brook and releasing beta:


ENTER CP_WRECK.

Can't wait to jump right into the contest, I'll see you guys at the finish line! :D

EDIT: Agreed with Jack, the posters seem much more appealing than a steam game

[fubarFX]

same here, I have an abondoned early alpha I'd like develop for the contest.
probably a case by case scenario :\

It's cp_vanguard in a2 altho it was the very first release (a1 screwed up) (http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=14102)

[BrokenTripod]

same here, I have an abondoned early alpha I'd like develop for the contest.
probably a case by case scenario :\

It's cp_vanguard in a2 altho it was the very first release (a1 screwed up) (http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=14102)

I just asked Ravage and he said to start from scratch and that a new map needs a new name.

So I guess I'm abandoning the name cp_activate? (AND starting from scratch)

He says you can be inspired by old maps, but you have to start anew.

[Ravidge]

Maps that aren't released may enter, unless it's extreme (been in secret development for several months). I'm pretty lenient on maps that were just started though since I understand people have been eager to start new projects lately.
However, please PM me to double check before entering! Thanks.

You may not straight up copy a map you've been working on (and releasing), but you may re-use ideas and such.
But a new map is a new map, it needs a new name and a new layout.

[Hanz]

I don't like that we can chose what we're making! Now I can't chose. :/

[DaBeatzProject]

I am so entering this! <3

[Hanz]

Also, I like 5 months time. :)

[Engineer]

I hope I'll finally finish something. I hate how I always abandon everything. :closedeyes:

[Jetamo]

Current work on my map:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4379545/arg/concept.png

[DaBeatzProject]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/642432/concept.jpg

[Engineer]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1517451/concept.png
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1517451/watmap.png)

[bob+M|M+]

awesome! been waiting for a new contest. definitely entering.

[Untouch]

# No Arena or KotH.
# No medieval mode.

:-(

Oh well.
I'll enter.

[3Dnj]

I hope I will found some time during my intership but... I'm in :)

[C00Kies]

I think I will enter. Been thinking about making an A>B>C A/D map from old ideas.

[Godslayer57]

Well to the drawing board of ideas....

[fubarFX]

I'm in with a tc :D
and the cave theme WILL make a comeback :O

[red_flame586]

hopefully will get me out of my mappers block, lets go :)

[Prestige]

this is awesome.

edit: all i see are rules and little explanation of the contest. just the word "asymmetry." :/ but i think i got the jist of it.

[stevethepocket]

Five is a lot of months. I guess I don't have an excuse to not try out the experimental 5CP concept I've had in limbo for months now. I won't bore you with the details until I have something substantial (or someone asks) but it essentially does to 5CP what Steel did to A/D.

I'm in with a tc :D

Go Team Unappreciated Game Mode! I wish I had that kind of resolve.

[littleedge]

Yeah I'm with Prestige. I think I know, but it'd be best to clarify: Are there two winners to this contest? Symmetrical (so mostly 5cp) and Asymmetrical winners?

[Ravidge]

Yeah I'm with Prestige. I think I know, but it'd be best to clarify: Are there two winners to this contest? Symmetrical (so mostly 5cp) and Asymmetrical winners?

Yes. 6 prize winners in total.
There will be First, second and third places for both categories of maps.

[Grim Tuesday]

Grim Tuesday is IN THE HOUSE!!!!

[BrokenTripod]

Grim Tuesday is IN THE HOUSE!!!!

GET OUTTA MY HOUSE!

Also, I made a whole CP today and stared at it for a while and now question my whole existence in this world. This contest sux.

[absurdistof]

Must follow the same game mechanics/scoring system as set by official maps.

Can someone explain this to me? Just standard CP scoring?

[Grim Tuesday]

One thing needs to be made clear: For the mappers/modelers out there, if one was to make their custom assets, then they would not need to prerelease them, correct.

[Lancey]

I am five parts angry, two parts disappointed, and seventeen parts delighted

[Aly]

Time to start mapping again.

[Montezuma]

wooo, screw my koth map, it sucked anyways. Time to see if I've got any talent at all :D

[Ravidge]

Must follow the same game mechanics/scoring system as set by official maps.

Can someone explain this to me? Just standard CP scoring?

What kind of scoring system do you want to use? Is there something like it in an official cp map?

One thing needs to be made clear: For the mappers/modelers out there, if one was to make their custom assets, then they would not need to prerelease them, correct.

The mapper themselves may make as many map specific assets as he wants for their own map, they do not need to be pre-released. This works exactly like it has done in all past competitions.

[Lord Ned]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/813382/TF2/Contest6/timeleft.html Hehehe. Someone should put this into one of those images that change and then put that in the OP.

[The Political Gamer]

If I win can I ask for all the Railworks DLC?

[Erich]

All I gotta say is, Buzz Buzz.

[nik]

If I win can I ask for all the Railworks DLC?

isn't it ONE game

[grazr]

If it's of equivilant value to a standard game, or less, why would that be an issue?

[Mr. P. Kiwi]

Can I make a map using an unofficial gameplay mechanic? Let's say, like the conquest one?

[grazr]

Can I make a map using an unofficial gameplay mechanic? Let's say, like the conquest one?

Rules:

>>>Must follow the same game mechanics/scoring system as set by official maps.<<<
You are allowed to increase/reduce the number of control points.
You are allowed to edit the control point capture order/prerequisites (elaborate gp-style maps).
>>>No custom modes such as Domination or similar.<<<


:/

[The Political Gamer]

Its kinda limited to:

Gorge/Dustbowl
Gpit/Steel
5CP
TC

[grazr]

It's kinda strange though... there's almost no focus; it's gonna be very hard to make any comparisons beyond whether you enjoy it or not, which is completely biased when it's relative to an individuals game mode tastes. In the last contest we had hardly any voters... is that really not going to be an issue? Especially when we're splitting up the maps into 2 categories.

Gpit and TC almost always have to have the same layout in order to work optimumly, and A/D is by far more popular than 5CP.

A/D is easily the safest choice for popularity and unique layout oppotunities, whilst 5CP is the safest choice in terms of work load (copy/paste/rotate). I'd only choose TC if i felt like i wanted to get the attention of Valve, since there's only 1 official TC map i'd imagine there's a greater chance of a community TC map going official.

[Loc_n_lol]

Its kinda limited to:

Gorge/Dustbowl
Gpit/Steel
5CP
TC

So it's hardly limited at all ? :P


A/D is easily the safest choice for popularity and unique layout oppotunities.

I wouldn't be so sure about that (popularity). 5cp certainly has a strong following amongst pub communities as well.

[yyler]

This might be the straw that slurps the Bonk! of inspiration for me

[Sgt.Sausage]

If it's of equivilant value to a standard game, or less, why would that be an issue?

Except that the game has over $500 of DLC on steam, and that was during the holiday sale at 50% off.

[Ravidge]

Its kinda limited to:

Gorge/Dustbowl
Gpit/Steel
5CP
TC

So in which of these categories does a map like cp_grinder fall? (which is allowed, it's a symmetrical linear 4 cp with a modified capture pre-req).
There's a lot more options than the ones you listed, if you give it a thought.

[honeymustard]

Cool, will enter.

[The Political Gamer]

So in which of these categories does a map like cp_grinder fall? (which is allowed, it's a symmetrical linear 4 cp with a modified capture pre-req).
There's a lot more options than the ones you listed, if you give it a thought.I guess it would fall under the "Other" category. This contest is so open the list could go on for ages. :s

[Untouch]

isn't it ONE game

What about the pack?
Technically it is one game, but a bunch of DLC.

[Codename22]

Let's see if I can make some time free for this awesome contest! :D

[grazr]

I wouldn't be so sure about that (popularity). 5cp certainly has a strong following amongst pub communities as well.

I'm not saying it doesn't, i'm just saying look at your server browser list. It's a large majority of 2fort/badwater/goldrush/dustbowl/harvest_event 24/7 servers. I even have more arena maps showing in my browser than 5CP maps. People like 5CP maps, but more people like A/D. So more people will (potentially) rate up A/D gameplay.

[fubarFX]

to me it's not a popularity factor.
tc is only one map, hydro alone can't make a mode popular (sure there is also merdian but it's not a tc in my opinion)
and yet tc is still one of the most awe inspiring mode for its varied and gameplay and layout complexity.
to me it feels as if a/d maps are going to suffer from their popularity in this contest. as in "it's just an other a/d map."

[Engineer]

So, is 3CP A/D an option?

[Ravidge]

So, is 3CP A/D an option?

Yes.

[God of Rock]

Someone explain the keychains. What do they look like?

[owly-oop]

I'm going to enter


boop beep boop

[yyler]

As far as "BLU must attack on A/D maps" -- what if they do, but RED can also attack, but it's not a 5CP or TC exactly? I don't want to get too specific (even though I've shared this idea before). But how strong is that rule? I don't think my entry would break it, but I also don't want to be disqualified.

[Ravidge]

As far as "BLU must attack on A/D maps" -- what if they do, but RED can also attack, but it's not a 5CP or TC exactly? I don't want to get too specific (even though I've shared this idea before). But how strong is that rule? I don't think my entry would break it, but I also don't want to be disqualified.

PM me, and be as specific as you can.

[stevethepocket]

As far as "BLU must attack on A/D maps" -- what if they do, but RED can also attack, but it's not a 5CP or TC exactly? I don't want to get too specific (even though I've shared this idea before). But how strong is that rule? I don't think my entry would break it, but I also don't want to be disqualified.

Let me guess: BLU is attacking, but RED can recapture points that have been taken?

[yyler]

No, not really. I sent a PM, and I think it'll be okay, and then if I do it you'll all see the majesty of an idea that may not be fun.

[The Political Gamer]

Might want to de-sticky the old contest...

[Rasputin]

http://i652.photobucket.com/albums/uu250/NicolaTesla17/cp_contest6_image.jpg

My concept...

I hope it's not too complex, because it probably is.

Edit: that path from 'D' to 'E' was supposed to be purple, by the way.

[fubarFX]

Those paths from R to a-b would have to be pretty long and provide too many flanks on blu's offencive to D and E.
I'd consider making a foward spawn for red on C so that the map plays like gravelpit until C is caped. then red spawns on E has shown here.

[Ravidge]

I've updated the rules with these additions:

No straight out copying or stealing content from other maps, official or otherwise. Inspiration and ideas are good, just make sure you built it yourself for this competition.
Maps that have been started but has not yet been released could enter the competition after approval from me (Ravidge). - updated!
You can't recycle your previous maps into this competition. - updated!

I was hoping that I wouldn't need to clarify this, and that I could deal with it on a case by case basis when it popped up. but it's getting out of hand, too many are trying to sneak their months old snippets (/whole maps) of work into the competition.
I'm still allowing unreleased content that was made recently. But I can not give people permission to use parts of their old maps for this competition, it's not what this event is about.

edit: note that I haven't changed the rules, just clarified my intentions.

[Engineer]

One more question. Would this be allowed? :mellow:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1517451/would.png

[StickZer0]

Engineer: How adventurous

[The Political Gamer]

I would assume 3cp is ok considering 5cp is also ok.

[Engineer]

Well, I'm not saying I'm making it like that. I still haven't decided.

[3Dnj]

I consider cp_oilfield is a really good map.

[Jetamo]

Basically isn't it all Valve-style CP maps except for medieval mode okay?

[yyler]

One more question. Would this be allowed? :mellow:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1517451/would.png

My map idea is allowed (!!!) and I can tell you that what I am doing means your idea is alright.

Clever people will start to piece my entry together early.

[sniprpenguin]

How 'bout A/D TC? Basically, instead of a fixed order for stages, the first X are random in order.

[DaBeatzProject]

Sniprpenguin: There is no real fixed order in TC, as far as I know?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imeSa4AyRug

[J4CK8]

Sniprpenguin: There is no real fixed order in TC, as far as I know?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imeSa4AyRug

I think he means the other way. An A/D map, but the stages are in a random order.

[Lancey]

Well, I'm not saying I'm making it like that. I still haven't decided.

Fair warning: 3CP makes it very easy for a team to sneak a player onto the last point while the first is still being captured, meaning a team can win the game before the defense can react. 5CP has that buffer that gives a team time to, if not defend it, prepare the last point for an attack.

EDIT:

Can we have a regulation that says you may only post a thread in the Contest Entries forum if you have something to show for it? A plan is nice but unless we require screenshots we're just going to have tons of threads consisting of "So I have this great idea" that will never be posted in again.

[Reece202]

Just for a little clarification before I get too far into this, is this allowed?
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8418/contestlayout.png

Where BLU can grab A and C at the beginning, A unlocks B, and having A,B, and C captured unlocks D. I think it's allowed but I'd like to be completely sure.

Also, are we allowed to use the Prefabs from A Boojum Snarks Ultimate Mapping Resource? Do they count towards the "No Collaboration" or "No Copying From Other Maps" rules?

[fubarFX]

If your map can be as over the top as steel, this is certainly allowed.
however, I think your A should unlock a path to C and C unlock a path to B so you don't split your teams too much

and you may use prefabs

[Ravidge]

How 'bout A/D TC? Basically, instead of a fixed order for stages, the first X are random in order.
You can make a multistage a/d cp map with random stage order if you want.

Can we have a regulation that says you may only post a thread in the Contest Entries forum if you have something to show for it? A plan is nice but unless we require screenshots we're just going to have tons of threads consisting of "So I have this great idea" that will never be posted in again.
This happens every competition, I don't think it's something to worry about just yet.

Just for a little clarification before I get too far into this, is this allowed?
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8418/contestlayout.png

Where BLU can grab A and C at the beginning, A unlocks B, and having A,B, and C captured unlocks D. I think it's allowed but I'd like to be completely sure.

Also, are we allowed to use the Prefabs from A Boojum Snarks Ultimate Mapping Resource? Do they count towards the "No Collaboration" or "No Copying From Other Maps" rules?

1) Map idea is fine. Just make sure your HUD clearly explains what is going on.
2) Prefabs, like Boojum snarks mapping resource is fine to use.

[littleedge]

Reece, can I suggest switching B and C in your diagram?

A and B are unlocked at the start. Capping A and B unlocks C, capping C unlocks D. That'd make the most sense.

[The Political Gamer]

Reece, can I suggest switching B and C in your diagram?

A and B are unlocked at the start. Capping A and B unlocks C, capping C unlocks D. That'd make the most sense.So then its steel -E :v

[Grim Tuesday]

So then its steel -E :v

No, its Steel -E, but also gravelpit.

[Reece202]

The way I have it set up now is that there's an open path between A and B at the beginning, Capping A opens a route between C and B. Past that I'm not telling until it's ready.

[Zeewier]

I have a request to the moderators:

If I ever post a WIP without playable version (for this contest). Please delete it ASAP.

Thank you!

[Ravidge]

I have a request to the moderators:

If I ever post a WIP without playable version (for this contest). Please delete it ASAP.

Thank you!

Alright.

[Mr. Happy]

oh wow may 25th I'm definitely entering!

[Jonah]

I assume using parts from old but unfinished and unreleased maps is not against the rules?

[Ravidge]

I assume using parts from old but unfinished and unreleased maps is not against the rules?

Go ahead. Just be sure you keep it at the level of "parts". Not "sections" or "areas".

[Jonah]

Go ahead. Just be sure you keep it at the level of "parts". Not "sections" or "areas".

Of course

[Brickinator]

I'm gonna enter this, despite that I haven't a hope in hell of winning it.

[Lyzak]

*cracks knuckles*
I waited ALL FREAKIN BREAK for this. GF me.

Now, on to serious questions.
First off, why the title? "(A)symmetry" doesn't tell me anything. It's in fact quite redundant. What does it mean? I can make any symmetrical OR asymmetrical map as long as it's CP? If so, why even include that header?
Second, where the hell did my other questions go... I know I left them around here somewhere...



EDIT: I found one of my other questions, hiding between the pages of my WINTER ASSIGNMENT THAT I WAS SUPPOSED TO BE DOING. It reads...

"I have a huge amount of maps that were started, theorized, etc, that I gave up on before even nearing completion. Does picking up on any of these maps, throwing them together, mixing, blending, etc., count as against the rules?"
-I noticed that Jonah asked a similar question, but I have a bit to add to it: What about theme? Like, my infamous 'Deconstruct' that never made it past alpha, was themed around something VERY specific. Am I allowed to use this specific theme, even though it's for a totally different map?

Which then spawns another question... is a map being somewhat non-canon going to count against me?





-Lyzák

[Tapp]

One last question about the game mode:
As far as I can tell you can use the control points in ANY way you like so long as you don't have anything affecting the control points or the game score except for control points?
So if I, just for the sake of example, put in 6 neutral control points with no prerequisite points and gave red and blu each a control point to start off with and the sole goal would be to capture all or a certain fraction of the control points, that would be fine?
Because the OP says you can do this but TPG says we're only allowed to go by existing setups.

[yyler]

I'd take staff's word over TPG's word.

[Ravidge]

"I have a huge amount of maps that were started, theorized, etc, that I gave up on before even nearing completion. Does picking up on any of these maps, throwing them together, mixing, blending, etc., count as against the rules?"
-I noticed that Jonah asked a similar question, but I have a bit to add to it: What about theme? Like, my infamous 'Deconstruct' that never made it past alpha, was themed around something VERY specific. Am I allowed to use this specific theme, even though it's for a totally different map?

Which then spawns another question... is a map being somewhat non-canon going to count against me?



1) "You can't recycle your previous maps into this competition."
Honestly, I don't see the point of even wanting to re-use old stuff. Making a map from scratch always turns out better than making a crappy jigsaw puzzle of parts that don't fit.

2) You can use your theme again, no problem.

3) No idea what you're talking about.

One last question about the game mode:
As far as I can tell you can use the control points in ANY way you like so long as you don't have anything affecting the control points or the game score except for control points?
So if I, just for the sake of example, put in 6 neutral control points with no prerequisite points and gave red and blu each a control point to start off with and the sole goal would be to capture all or a certain fraction of the control points, that would be fine?
Because the OP says you can do this but TPG says we're only allowed to go by existing setups.

There are no official cp maps that even come close to this kind of gameplay.
The rules state that you can take any existing cp gamemode and edit it a little (note: edit != remove completely). But this is a total revamp, a cp map where there is neither capture order or prerequisites is not allowed.
Neither can you have a map where you win by capturing a certain fraction of the available control points. That counts as a custom gamemode.

If you think you can rework your idea so it will fit my rules, I'm would be very happy to work something out with you. Just send a PM.

[Lyzak]

Ok. So, qualifying game modes:

A/D, single- or multi-stage, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7cp etc are all legal? (Not that I advise 7cp A/D or anything)
Push, with any amount of CPs, in any hierarchy, are all legal? (again, not suggesting, just proposing)
A+B > C, and ALL variants are all legal? (AGAIN, just proposing)
STEEL-esque goal strings are legal?
Teritorial Control is legal.

[Ravidge]

Ok. So, qualifying game modes:

A/D, single- or multi-stage, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7cp etc are all legal? (Not that I advise 7cp A/D or anything)
Push, with any amount of CPs, in any hierarchy, are all legal? (again, not suggesting, just proposing)
A+B > C, and ALL variants are all legal? (AGAIN, just proposing)
STEEL-esque goal strings are legal?
Teritorial Control is legal.

Not sure what you mean by "in any hierarchy", but other than that, yes.

I'd much rather get PM's about cp variations than try and list what you can and can't do right up front. Reading a list just grinds all imagination to a halt.

[Lyzak]

Ah, I see ;_;

Anyways, all I meant by Hierarchy is how points need to be captured.

Example, you have a 6cp push map. 2 "Base" points and 4 middle points, 2 on each side. An example of unorthodox hierarchy would be having to cap both points on your side before capping either of the points on your opponent's side, and having to then capture both of those before capping their base point.

Or, in much simpler terms, Hierarchy is what capture point(s) need to be owned before capturing X.


Oh, PS, I'm not using that example, so it's open for stealing. =D

[Lyzak]

Hm, I actually think I'm going to retire from this contest. It seems that my knack is thinking, but I'm just not experienced enough to really manifest those ideas...

Kinda a sad realization to come to, that one's strong point is just dreaming things up.

[yyler]

I know I said what I said, asked what I asked, but in the end I think I'm not going to do the idea I wanted to do. Instead I'm going to make another 2cp a/d map (using what I've been creating), because there just aren't enough of them.

Should I make a new thread? If not, can someone rename my thread to Desertion (http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=15988) and make it cp please? Thanks!

...For anyone curious, the idea I had (and have shared before) was to do a 3cp push map. The winner of that would then attack in a 1 or 2 cp (still undecided) attack map like the final points of Hydro. So the push part was going to be a mining facility, and then Red would go on to destroy Blu's payload factory while Blu would go on to destroy Red's rocket plant. Hence "last stand". But that is something I currently don't have the capacity to create.

[NINJABreadMan]

so we can use custom textures?

[Lyzak]

I believe it's been said that you can use custom X as long as either:
1) It's publicly available as of the start of the contest, or
2) You personally make it.

[Loc_n_lol]

1) It's publicly available as of the start of the contest

Up to one month before the deadline, actually. With some leniency so that the rule may not be used to circumvent the no-collab rule. ;)

[Whark]

Ouch. Just the thought of entering makes me start hurting all over. I think I have to puke.

[Boregano]

This'll be interesting. I've never made a TF2 map before. I'm not new to Hammer, but I'm sure there are different aspects to it when making TF2 maps. What a better way to learn than a contest!

[Geal]

So are there plans for a preliminary round or anything? I think the competitive CTF contest certainly showed how many entries there can be, and it would be nice to avoid more preliminary drama.

[Loc_n_lol]

What do you mean by preliminary round ?

[Ravidge]

So are there plans for a preliminary round or anything? I think the competitive CTF contest certainly showed how many entries there can be, and it would be nice to avoid more preliminary drama.

If something like that were to happen, I will let people know. The contest has only been running for like 2 weeks so far so I can't really give you a straight answer.

This contest has 2 categories of maps, and that hopefully will mitigate the need for a prelim somewhat too.

[Geal]

What do you mean by preliminary round ?

Last year's competitive CTF contest had I think around 25 final entries, and it was too much to be fairly judged. So for about a month after the end of the contest, there was a ton of drama about how and if there would be preliminary eliminations. Eventually it was worn down to 10 finalists chosen by the judges, I think.

I figure it would be safe to assume that this could very well happen again, and start planning accordingly and let us know ahead of time. I know it's still really early in the contest, which is why I think it should be brought up - so we can get everything decided and agreed upon.

[grazr]

Part of the problem was also that we didn't have the judges we were supposed to have. So there were very few judges judging a lot of maps. I would have been happy judging all 25, A Boojum Snark did. IT wasn't impossible, but some people had a stick up there arse about it (Flame).

[Icarus]

(Flame).

Why just mention flame? Put me on the list, I sure as hell didn't want to write 25 reviews. My 10 reviews were long and took long enough already.

You're so considerate grazr :/

[grazr]

Why just mention flame? Put me on the list, I sure as hell didn't want to write 25 reviews. My 10 reviews were long and took long enough already.

You're so considerate grazr :/

OK, then Icarus was a lazy boob too. If you're gonna volunteer to review a bunch of maps then you should probably show some respect to the guys who spent 3 months building a map by taking 20 minutes to write a review on it, whether it was good or not (that's exactly what the review is for, not idle praise for a winning entry/runner up). If you're testing the maps like you said you would then the feedback should come naturally and you'd want to feedback a map you spent so much time playing. I reviewed all 25 maps and i wasn't even a judge. It wasn't hard.

But maybe that's just me. That's just how i feel about it. I'm sure everyone appreciates the time you took to review the maps you did but most people expected more and i don't think it was unreasonable as this was already implied. Shunning half the maps didn't feel in the spirit of TF2maps or the contest. But again, that's just me. I'm sorry if that irks you...

[God of Rock]

We can do 3 cp gravelpit style right?

It's not clear.

[Loc_n_lol]

We can do 3 cp gravelpit style right?

It's not clear.

Is it a CP map ? Yes
Is there an official map that plays like yours ? Yes, that would be gravelpit.
Ergo, you can do it.

[mariodude146]

Screw cp_wetworks, hello cp_overgrowth!:)

[Prestige]

modern warfare remakes?

cp_wetwork = cp_granary_night_rain

[Karnage]

I'm entering this - it'll be good for me to work towards a solid deadline

[AxiomaticFrood]

Question: does it matter how the symmetry is applied to the map? As in, if I were building an a/d map that was symmetric "down the middle" is that symmetrical or asymmetrical?

(By "down the middle" I mean like the letter "A" where one team is attacking from the bottom of the A and one team is defending from the top of A. This means game play is asymmetrical while the map itself is symmetrical.)

I have no idea if anyone will understand what I'm talking about. Later I'll do a scribble version...

[yyler]

What you mean (I think) is rotational versus mirrored symmetry, yes? Either would be fine, I imagine.

[stevethepocket]

A word of caution, though: Mirrored symmetry is generally not a good idea in a multiplayer map because it basically makes players learn to play the map both ways. That, and it interferes with their natural inclination to turn right. Different teams may find themselves favoring different routes instinctively, leading to one doing better.

In theory this would be the same way for Arena and KOTH maps, but for the sake of simplicity designers tend to make those mirrored anyway, and it's probably less of a big deal because they're smaller.

[J4CK8]

I'm making a U shaped 5cp map. Not sure how it's going to play out but I predict people won't like it. It's sort of an experiment but if it's generaly disliked due to the layout, I'll probably scrap it. I've spent days trying to make a suitable plan for a cp map with no results :(

[Loc_n_lol]

Question: does it matter how the symmetry is applied to the map? As in, if I were building an a/d map that was symmetric "down the middle" is that symmetrical or asymmetrical?

(By "down the middle" I mean like the letter "A" where one team is attacking from the bottom of the A and one team is defending from the top of A. This means game play is asymmetrical while the map itself is symmetrical.)

I have no idea if anyone will understand what I'm talking about. Later I'll do a scribble version...

My assumption would be that it would play like an assymetrical map, except less varied because left or right is the same thing mirrored. So I don't know what the players could gain from that. :bored:

I really can't tell where it would fit in the contest but I question the basis behind the idea in the first place.

[Prestige]

I'm making a U shaped 5cp map. Not sure how it's going to play out but I predict people won't like it. It's sort of an experiment but if it's generaly disliked due to the layout, I'll probably scrap it. I've spent days trying to make a suitable plan for a cp map with no results :(

U shape would be pretty cool. doppler had one awhile ago, didn't play amazing for other reasons. stick with it though!

[Dragonstorm24]

with the new medieval theme that VALVe released things could get very interesting.

[Lancey]

U shape would be pretty cool. doppler had one awhile ago, didn't play amazing for other reasons. stick with it though!

Cauldron technically was U shaped.

[yyler]

I like mirrored symmetry for smaller maps, like KOTH or Arena. Lumberyard is a great example I think. That's tiny though.

[Sgt Frag]

I'm making a U shaped 5cp map. Not sure how it's going to play out but I predict people won't like it. It's sort of an experiment but if it's generaly disliked due to the layout, I'll probably scrap it. I've spent days trying to make a suitable plan for a cp map with no results :(

I honestly don't think the overall shape of the map matters at all. Whether the points are in a straight line, S shape, U shape...
It's the small details that the player has to go around, over,under.. that make the gameplay area.

I saw another thread yesterday that pointed to a study of map shapes (the map from top was one big straight line, but players don't travel in straight line.

A U shape could be beneficial in NOT having foward spawns on a 5 CP map, just shortcuts that open/close to change distances. (but might also lead to an easy steam roll if entire attacking team uses that while one scout stays back and caps to lock the door behind them.

[J4CK8]

It will still need forward spawns I'd think. There is a building between the spawns, (which are at either side at the top of the 'U') which i guess could be used to create a shortcut to bypass cap 2. It's a not exactly as small map though. I'll prob get some pics in the WiP thread or maybe have it uploaded this weekend.

[KingOfSandvich]

I've been mapping for a while, but I officially registered on the site to enter this contest. I really need to actually make a releasable map, and this is a good start.

My project: cp_Space_Station

A Gravelpit type A+B>C map, entirely indoors, but with big windows showing awesome views of Earth under you. BLU is trying to stop RED from firing an ion cannon.

I won't make a thread until I at least have some screenshots...

[MoonHitler]

I was planning on making a CP map anyways, so I'll give this a shot.

[Jakkarra]

Totally in.

[Dragonstorm24]

Project name: Tanis

[Brickinator]

Oh no. Now Valve have mentioned this on the blog, I have not a hope in hell of winning.

[grazr]

poppycock. The last contest was won by someone nobody really heard of. Literally anyone could win the contest if they just tried hard enough.

[re1wind]

I'm going to assume that i can take bits and pieces* of an unfinished map of mine (cp_sandstone) and use them in this contest?

*partial or entire buildings, structures, terrain, etc.

[Loc_n_lol]

poppycock. The last contest was won by someone nobody really heard of. Literally anyone could win the contest if they just tried hard enough.

"Not everyone can become a great artist, but a great artist can come from anywhere."

[Mister_L]

I want to join the contest, but before making any big move, I need to know if this layout and capping pre-requisites would be okay:

http://img96.imageshack.us/i/symmetry.png/
The Base CPs (team-colored circles) are right in front of the spawn rooms, and unavailable for capture.
When the match starts, the teams will fight for the three middle points (gray circles) in any order.
Once a team, BLU for example, has the three middle CPs at the same time, the RED's Base CP is available for capture. There's two outcomes of this:
-> If BLU caps the last point, they win.
-> If RED caps any of the three Mid-CPs, their Base CP is locked again.

Basically it's a 5-CP Push map, but with some alterations. If that's not okay, Ravidge, please tell me. I have a backup plan (Attack/Defend 5CP), just in case :)

[Lancey]

I don't think that's approved.

[Loc_n_lol]

I don't think that's against the rules, but I strongly recommend you do not do it, because it cannot play well in TF2. Basically, you're spreading the players all over the map, turning the game into a serie of 1 on 1 skirmishes. Plus there are basically flanks everywhere, which means completely chaotic gameplay.
I've tried somehting similar in the past and was never satisfied with the result.
Just don't have more than 2 objectives enabled on the map at any time. Ever. Doesn't matter if the objective is a cp, a payload cart, or an intel briefcase.

[Mister_L]

Nerdboy and Loc_n_lol:
I guess you're right. Better get back to the Attack/Defend map.
BTW, it's a 5-CP GravelPit-esque. A+B -> C+D -> E. Probably much better than the other idea.

[Ravidge]

I'm going to assume that i can take bits and pieces* of an unfinished map of mine (cp_sandstone) and use them in this contest?

*partial or entire buildings, structures, terrain, etc.

I rather you didn't.
So many people have been trying to recycle old creations that I had to put in a extra clause in the rules: "No straight out copying or stealing content from other maps, official or otherwise. Inspiration and ideas are good, just make sure you built it yourself for this competition."

I want to join the contest, but before making any big move, I need to know if this layout and capping pre-requisites would be okay:

http://img96.imageshack.us/i/symmetry.png/
The Base CPs (team-colored circles) are right in front of the spawn rooms, and unavailable for capture.
When the match starts, the teams will fight for the three middle points (gray circles) in any order.
Once a team, BLU for example, has the three middle CPs at the same time, the RED's Base CP is available for capture. There's two outcomes of this:
-> If BLU caps the last point, they win.
-> If RED caps any of the three Mid-CPs, their Base CP is locked again.

Basically it's a 5-CP Push map, but with some alterations. If that's not okay, Ravidge, please tell me. I have a backup plan (Attack/Defend 5CP), just in case :)

This is fine. Though I see you've already abandoned it?

[Mister_L]

This is fine. Though I see you've already abandoned it?
Hmm, I'm not sure yet.
I shouldn't have replied so fast, since I wanted your opinion, but Loc_n_lol did have a good point. Since you said that my map is ok by the rules, I'll decide if it's also ok by the gameplay's (and fun's) POV.

Alright, I'll plan some more now, and make the map thread when I finish the Alpha. I'll try to post only if it's worth questioning.

[Sgt Frag]

@Mister_L

Could be fun, but there's a large chance it'll turn into endless stalemates. Or people will result to scout rushing to get around the stalemate.
Maybe make it so 2 out of 3 opens last point?

[Loc_n_lol]

@Mister_L, youcould remove one of the three CPs and get something somewhat better, but I've seen other maps using that and it didn't turn out very well either. Maybe if the neutral CPs are sufficiently close to each other... or... something. I wouldn't rule it out completely, but playtest it early and keep a backup idea.

[Ravidge]

cp_grinder springs to mind.

[Mister_L]

Well, thanks everyone for the opinions. I decided to make a regular 5CP map, so no more worries.
Maybe after the contest I can try that concept, but not now.

[Another Bad Pun]

Heck Yeah! (I'm in.)

[LeSwordfish]

That signature of yours is ALREADY presenting itself for amusing situations. It's like you've got a second, more recalitrant head, muttering "Heck no" after everything you say.

[Motanum]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but can I use the Construction Pack in my map entry?

[grazr]

Yes you can. It was publicly released for the public to use. I'm pretty sure this was added to the OP.

You can use the swamp pack (though it went official anyway), construction pack, bullet crops pack and any other individually released content released for public use.

[Motanum]

Ok, cool. Thanks!

[MoonHitler]

I'm doing a linear 5-point symmetrical one, similar to how Granary is.

CP_Power_Station!

[Vincent]

I'm doing a linear 5-point symmetrical one, similar to how Granary is.

CP_Power_Station!

This contest is gonna end soon, just a heads up.

[Fr0Z3n]

You have until may 25th. 2 months. Not uncalled for... If I get close to finishing hayloft I may enter it.

[Vincent]

Oh, then I am mistaken. Carry on.

[Ezekel]

just want to make sure here, but what would disqualify a map in this contest?
in the past contests there were things like: upload it to the correct place, make sure you have X number of references to tf2maps.net, and other requirements.
this time it seems that: as long as you are mapping for the right game mode and don't collab with someone your map won't be disqualified.

so, is that it, or is there more to it than that?

[Ravidge]

More specific information about entry submission procedure will be available together with the submission thread (when that goes up).

If you've followed the rules stated in the OP, you're fine. And there are no requirements for references (via overlays or models) in this contest.

The largest threat for disqualification is late entries IMO. I will be merciless and on the minute. I say this because I want to make sure you (anyone) only have themselves to blame for submitting at the last second or even after.
I will remind people of this in the submission thread too.

[Ezekel]

More specific information about entry submission procedure will be available together with the submission thread (when that goes up).

If you've followed the rules stated in the OP, you're fine. And there are no requirements for references (via overlays or models) in this contest.

The largest threat for disqualification is late entries IMO. I will be merciless and on the minute. I say this because I want to make sure you (anyone) only have themselves to blame for submitting at the last second or even after.
I will remind people of this in the submission thread too.

ouch... well i still aim to submit a day or 2 early, but i'm sure i'm not the only one who has exams on that week when the deadline hits, just saying.

[MoonHitler]

This contest is gonna end soon, just a heads up.

I hadn't only just started when I posted that; I just thought I ought to say what I was working on.

[owly-oop]

you should delay the contest a week due to portal 2 and me being easily DISTACTED

[Moose]

you should delay the contest a week due to portal 2 and me being easily DISTACTED

It would be nice to get some extra time, a lot of the entries are a bit behind right now.

[Rexy]

I don't think it's fair to say we should get extra time because the entries are behind, that's not right at all, since total it's a 4 month deal--that's a lot of time.

Now delaying the deadline by a few days/1 week so we can all play portal 2 for a while, that I both like and think is fair. I won't even pretend that P2 isn't going to suck my life away.

[Dragonstorm24]

I don't think it's fair to say we should get extra time because the entries are behind, that's not right at all, since total it's a 4 month deal--that's a lot of time.

Now delaying the deadline by a few days/1 week so we can all play portal 2 for a while, that I both like and think is fair. I won't even pretend that P2 isn't going to suck my life away.

Just wait until the fall when Mass Effect 3, Skyrim, and Battlefield 3 come out, there won't be another contest for a while after that.


Btw, probably not going to finish my entry because I am really busy right now.

[LeSwordfish]

If all the entries are behind, nobody's handicapped! and those who have worked harder get more benefit! Like, you know, they should.

[fubarFX]

karst is definitely not "behind" but I have to say portal 2 and its ARG are taking a lot of my time right now

[Ravidge]

There won't be a time extension. This was mentioned day 1 of the competition, let's not forget that time management is a big part in events like this.

40 days left.

[grazr]

It might be worth mentioning whether people get the 24 hour grace period for things like accidently compiling with clip visgroups off or what ever. This has been a standard thing in previous contests so people might assume it's the case here as well.

[Seba]

I'll just leave this (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/813382/TF2/Contest6/timeleft.html) here to remind people how fucked they are since their maps are nowhere near ready and they only have [TIME] left.

[Fr0Z3n]

38 days.... wonder if i could make a fully working/detailed map in that time.

[Ezekel]

I don't think it's fair to say we should get extra time because the entries are behind, that's not right at all, since total it's a 4 month deal--that's a lot of time.

Now delaying the deadline by a few days/1 week so we can all play portal 2 for a while, that I both like and think is fair. I won't even pretend that P2 isn't going to suck my life away.

whilst i kinda agree with the sentiments (also the hatless update messed with my time managements a lil too, cos i was relying on some testing at the start of this week that didn't happen), the fact is that all of this got taken into account at the start of the contest, which is why it's 4 months not 3.
portal2 will still be there in june, tf2 cp contest won't.

anyway, fingers crossed - it'll be moot point and we'll all still manage to crunch time our way out of this.


38 days.... wonder if i could make a fully working/detailed map in that time.

it's not impossible. but i'm guessing you have other things to do in that time too - exams perhaps, or a job, i dunno?
also it'll be hard to get it adequately tested. - but either way, i'd like to see what you can pull out in that time, if only out of curiousity. i recommend a single stage map with 2 or 3 points, and a simple well defined theme (e.g. gorge/hydro or dustbowl/badlands/rush - and don't use a weather effect)

[Fr0Z3n]

well, my last final is the 7th, and I'll be hone from the 9th til ~20th, then I have to go back to school to start my research, so ~15 days I'll have to block out, test, detail and finalize...

Yea, I'll stick with what I got. I'll pick up the next one. I assume that there will be something for the summer.

[Wilson]

I assume that there will be something for the summer.

Hopefully there will be, as then i could have enough time to actually enter one of these contest. :thumbup:

[Ravidge]

I would like to remind people that I'm still looking for judges.
To volunteer, send me a PM with a couple of lines explaining why I shouldn't banish you to the public voting category.
We rather have too many applicants than too few, so if you're on the edge and can't decide, I encourage you to just send one in and see what happens. You can always pull out if you want to, there are no binding contracts!

Being a judge means you are required to rate all the participating maps, and motivate your scoring with a short write-up on each entry.
(for more information on what judging entails, read the OP).

It's also a great way to contribute to the community as a whole!
Thank you.

[yyler]

But if I'm a judge I can't win.

Make Rexy a judge.

[fubarFX]

if I'm entering in the symmetrical category, can I judge for asymmetrical and vice versa?

[grazr]

I doubt it, if you're gonna judge officially then you commit to judging all maps, fairly, equally and objectively.

I really don't see how it could be any other way. Judging half the maps is a cop out. Leave that to the public vote.

[Doctor Paprika]

As a grad student, I have a two week window in which I have nothing to do for either school or work, and - because I am insane - I have decided to try and make a map for this contest in that time frame.

Yes, make a full map in two weeks.

Now, my question for the more experienced mappers is this: is there any way to expedite the alpha/beta testing? What is the shortest amount of time I could possibly accomplish it in?

I am very confident in my map design, concept, and ability to actually put it all together quickly, but I do not want to skip too much play-testing and submit it with some glaring oversight.

[yyler]

Buy VIP, upload your map every revision, get into chat and organize some impromptus. A lot of impromptus.

[fubarFX]

pretty much what yyler said. release early and release often
getting vip will make this process alot easier

[Moose]

Now, my question for the more experienced mappers is this: is there any way to expedite the alpha/beta testing? What is the shortest amount of time I could possibly accomplish it in?

Get as much done as you can and don't waste time. If you're waiting to test a new alpha, go ahead and work on the next alpha. (Or if there isn't anything to work on, detail areas you're confident won't change.)

Also, keep a list of things you need to do, so you don't forget something stupid like cubemaps.

the shortest amount of time you can get things done in just depends on how quickly you work, and how much you end up needing to change.

[Ravidge]

I've started going through the judge applications now.
Now, remember that May 10th is the deadline to apply for judge position. Being picked could happen before or after that date! So confirmation on your position may take time, but if I responded to your application, that means it's still in the "race".

[Another Bad Pun]

I'm out, I thought I would have time but school work and other activities kept me from working on my map. Oh well, maybe next time.

[Ravidge]

http://www.timeanddate.com/counters/customcounter.html?msg=&day=25&month=05&year=2011&hour=20&min=00&sec=00&p0=0

Bookmark it ;)

[yyler]

Submissions open on the 18th, right?

Also tomorrow is the last day to apply for judging, right?

[Ravidge]

Submissions open on the 18th, right?

Also tomorrow is the last day to apply for judging, right?

Yes.

Yes.

[Loc_n_lol]

http://www.timeanddate.com/counters/customcounter.html?msg=&day=25&month=05&year=2011&hour=20&min=00&sec=00&p0=0

Bookmark it ;)

Easy as pie, I can slack off for 12 more days ! :rolleyes:

[Vincent]

But if I responded to your application, that means it's still in the "race".

Sadface.jpg :thumbdown:

Oh well. I can try for the next contest I guess.

[sniprpenguin]

So confirmation on your position may take time, but if I responded to your application, that means it's still in the "race".

Well now I'm confuzzled.

Does a response include the autoreply?

[Vincent]

Well now I'm confuzzled.

Does a response include the totally-not-an-autoreply autoreply?

Actually, now I'm confused as well.

[Ravidge]

The "autoreply" is a confirmation that I've read your submission. Another message will be sent to those people that are confirmed candidates about their position. If you've not recieved a message clearly stating you're either accepted or rejected, you're still being considered as a candidate.

[Boylee]

And if you've received a message saying that you are neither accepted nor rejected then please remain confused.

[LeSwordfish]

Read that in Cave Johnson's voice. Totally fitted.

[MoonHitler]

I'm out - I'm not getting as much time as I'd like to work on it, so it won't be complete in time. Nevermind, there'll be more competitions.

[Loc_n_lol]

If I upload a map submission say.. today, for safety, I can update it until the deadline without causing problems, right ? I don't have to submit the final version immediately ?

[Ravidge]

If I upload a map submission say.. today, for safety, I can update it until the deadline without causing problems, right ? I don't have to submit the final version immediately ?

As mentioned in the upload thread you can update your submission as many times as you like before the deadline.

So the answer is yes. And actually I would recommend people to do just that if they're planning to getting frisky with the last-minute submissions. Better to have something than nothing.

[Micnax]

Looking at the submission thread already makes me think about who I'd vote for.

Good god it's going to be hard to choose!

[Ravidge]

Copy-pasting this part from the OP to remind people how voting will work:

Judgment Procedure:
Eligibility: Maps will be checked and disqualified when the contest submission deadline ends if they do not meet the rules.

Judging Categories
There are 5 judging categories, each one has a different weight on the final score of the map.
The Gameplay and Balance categories account for 25% each, Aesthetics and Performance account for 20% each while Technical is 10%.

Gameplay (25% of final score) - Does the map have a good flow, is the layout intuitive? Are spawn timers correctly adjusted to create battles in the right areas? Is the map scaled properly, are the walk times between points of interest too long or short?
Balance (25%) - Do RED and BLU stand an even chance of winning the map? Is there a fair contest for each control point? Can each class hold their own in the map? Is any one overpowered or underpowered? Is there a good distribution of health and ammo kits?
Aesthetics (20%) - Is the map intricate and beautiful? Is there a high level of polish to the map? Does the map fit the style of TF2? Do the individual detailing choices make the map feel put together, or discordant? Is the environment visually pleasing?
Performance (20%) - How well the map is optimized. Framerate, filesize, etc.
Technical (10%) - Does the map have bad clipping? Does any spawns leave you stuck in the floor/wall? Does capture blocking work properly for all CPs?


First component - Popular Vote

One thread will be made where votes will be posted to. The first post will contain a template vote which voters will copy and paste as their reply, changing the numbers to reflect their opinions.
In that thread, voters will have the opportunity to grade each map for all categories, from 1-10, as well as giving a short summary if they wish.
The results of each vote, after the judging time is over, will be calculated together to get an average rating for each map.
Users MAY NOT grade their own maps.
The goal of the popular vote is to get an overall rating for each map based on everyone's impression of how fun it is. It prevents judges' votes from counting too much, and makes sure the winners are indicative of our entire community's feelings.

[Hanz]

I guess this is going to start after the grace period?

[Ravidge]

Well it's not going to be before the grace period is it?

serious: I don't know exactly when voting will open. Maybe whenever I feel the maps have all had a decent chance at presenting themselves.

There is nothing stopping you from writing down numbers and taking notes already though. Start early, by all means... but make sure you play enough so you can comfortably motivate your scores!

[Loc_n_lol]

Maybe whenever I feel the maps have all had a decent chance at presenting themselves.

So how is this part going to work out ? Is it each author's individual responsibility ? Are there going to be dedicated events ?

[grazr]

The judges, including myself, will be organising events and impromptu's, naturally.

It was the mappers responsibility to get their map tested for balance and then the map submitted by the deadline, It's the judges responsibililty to test and criticise. So it will be the judges initiative to run tests. Several of which have already occured.

[yyler]

Out of curiosity can someone post a list of judges or point me to the list if I missed it

[ScorpioUprising]

out of curiosity can someone post a list of judges or point me to the list if i missed it

the better with which to bribe them!

[Wilson]

You know, looking how Judges base their scores on playing them on server, it would be cool if all the maps from contest entry thread would be uploaded on the server, so Judges can test them all instead cycling trough ones that have been made by people who are more active in chat room or have donated.

[littleedge]

I do believe that as of an hour ago or so, all contest maps are now uploaded.

[Fr0Z3n]

at roughly 4:15 EST all of the maps were uploaded (Rexy asked me to finish them up)

[hobbes348]

Is ther a link to all the map downloads?

[Jack Riguel]

There's usually one provided once a little mini site is set up. Of course it doesn't take that long to just download them all from the submission thread, i did it in about 5 minutes.

[EArkham]

Are we allowed to continue developing and releasing our entries independent of the contest?

Kep

[Fr0Z3n]

I'm pretty sure other people are planning on it, I know languid is still working on clocktower. I don't see why you couldn't.

[Okrag]

You can continue to work on your maps but we want to avoid newer versions being played too often as people may base opinions on it, not realizing it is a newer version.

[littleedge]

Yeah. Suggestion: Wait on updating your map until the contest judging procedures are over with.

[Leminnes]

Anyone mind if I post a map pack for the time being? I remember there being a reason not to do that, but I can't remember what it is.

[Leminnes]

Well, no one has answered. So here's all the maps in a zip. Feel free to download:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4222914/TF2Maps/CPContestMaps.zip

[littleedge]

Can I just say something? Now that voting is out, please THINK about how you're rating maps! It bothers me to no end when people just give all maps multiple 8's, 9's, and 10's. If you're saying each map is perfect, you need to go play them again. No map here is perfect. The below is just my opinion, my suggestion, take it with a grain of salt or don't read it.


If you give Gameplay a 10/10, you are saying that the map is nearly flawless. That means that on all maps, the spawn times are perfectly set so that fighting happens in the yards before points.

A bunch of people wanted to vote by how much fun they had on a map. If a map is not balanced, it is usually not very much fun. If you get frustrated whenever you're BLU, it's not balanced. Don't give Balance a 9/10. Don't use Feedback's win ratio system as the only way of rating balance. Balance includes item pickups, don't forget that.

It is very difficult for a map to get a perfect score in aesthetics. Black props because of lighting issues? It isn't perfect. If a map has alpha textures on one part, you don't give it a 9 :/ Displacements look like they're made out of clay or the polar opposite? Rate accordingly.

Performance. Don't do what I did last year where fps ranges were how you rated the map. It's a contributing factor, but put into account the size of the .bsp and how much custom content is in it, compare it to popular custom-content filled (or stock-content filled) maps and see how their sizes compare.

Technical. Most maps have PLENTY of clipping errors, many are easily exploitable, and I know this. Not to be vain or anything, but no map should really have a perfect 10/10 for Technical. Not even Zig, which was checked by multiple people. But don't forget about any odd spawns. There's a command for that, use it.

[Ravidge]

Good post littleedge.

Feel free to discuss what tricks and thoughts to go through when judging the different categories.
I feel I should stress that the whole 1-10 range is available, I don't care what numbers you use since it's a average score in the end. What is important is that you personally judge all the maps on the same standards.

It's not insulting to rate a map a 1,2 or 3 if you are equally critical to all the entries. Using the full range also gives you the power to actually have some weight in your opinion. If ALL your scores are 7-10's, you most likely will just raise the average for all the maps and not affect the end result one bit.

[Leminnes]

Performance. Don't do what I did last year where fps ranges were how you rated the map. It's a contributing factor, but put into account the size of the .bsp and how much custom content is in it, compare it to popular custom-content filled (or stock-content filled) maps and see how their

Is the size if the BSP really that important? That doesn't really seem to have to do with performance at all, just how long it takes to DL beforehand. Unless the size is because of overly detailed lightmaps or something.

[Icarus]

10/10 shouldn't necessarily mean perfect, but I agree people should use the entire 1-10 scale rather than IGN's 7-9 grading scale.

The maps should be graded on a curve, and its score based on how it compares with competitors. Don't use the high-school grading system; 5ish should be the average. If you don't use the whole scale, you are not making the most out of your vote.

And remember, mapping standards back in 2008 are a lot different than they are in 2011, even with the same game.

Is the size if the BSP really that important? That doesn't really seem to have to do with performance at all, just how long it takes to DL beforehand. Unless the size is because of overly detailed lightmaps or something.
If you've ever tried to help keep a custom map server up, you would know that maps with really large filesizes (upwards of 100MBish) can really make a dent in your server population, and becomes rather prohibitive to use. Filesize usually isn't a problem though, since most maps usually don't get anywhere near that large.

[Leminnes]

If you've ever tried to help keep a custom map server up, you would know that maps with really large filesizes (upwards of 80MBish) can really make a dent in your server population, and becomes rather prohibitive to use.

I'm aware of this, but I also believe it is unfair to give a map a lower grade because they decided to use original props and textures.

[Icarus]

I guess the best way to put it is efficiency. I wouldn't really deduct points from a map if they used original materials economically. There are several times, however, when you get a map that's loading with original materials without much care to compression and usage.

Still, file size is just another small component of anything perf could encompass.

[Moose]

A bunch of people wanted to vote by how much fun they had on a map. If a map is not balanced, it is usually not very much fun. If you get frustrated whenever you're BLU, it's not balanced. Don't give Balance a 9/10. Don't use Feedback's win ratio system as the only way of rating balance. Balance includes item pickups, don't forget that.

I'd like to add that even though I agree with this, you also have to realize that team balance isn't something determined by the map alone. If you have 5 snipers on blu and can't attack a point, you should realize that it's probably because your team has 5 snipers. Also, things like losing streaks do happen, so you always have to be careful when assuming a map is too difficult for one particular team.

the win ratio alone doesn't determine balance, but it does provide good information on whether or not a round is being won, and it might go against what you've witnessed in the playtests you've been in.

[LeSwordfish]

You have to use your own judgement. Many people here could spot a unbalanced map even when rolling it on unbalanced teams.

[REEJ]

I wouldn't give 10/10 even to Valve maps, if I were to vote seriously serious.

[LeSwordfish]

True. 10 is 100%, and i havent yet seen perfect.

[littleedge]

My examples were pretty exaggerated and I completely expect people to be not dumb. But yeah, use common sense people.

Also, as previously stated, if you find all of your ratings are high up there, try and alter them a little bit. Don't ensure that 1/10 of the maps have an average of each number or anything, but if all your maps have 7's and 8's, go back and deduct a couple from those that just don't compare to your other 7's and 8's. Especially if you do this over a multiple day period.

[Ravidge]

I've banged together a webpage. It was supposed to happen a long time ago, but my internet died and some other stuff got inbetween. Well, anyway, here it is.. enjoy

http://asymmetrycp.tf2maps.net/

[Ravidge]

I've banged together a webpage. It was supposed to happen a long time ago, but my internet died and some other stuff got inbetween. Well, anyway, here it is.. enjoy

http://asymmetrycp.tf2maps.net/

(Thanks to Fr0z3n for helping out!)

[grazr]

I feel I should stress that the whole 1-10 range is available, I don't care what numbers you use since it's a average score in the end. What is important is that you personally judge all the maps on the same standards.

It's not insulting to rate a map a 1,2 or 3 if you are equally critical to all the entries. Using the full range also gives you the power to actually have some weight in your opinion. If ALL your scores are 7-10's, you most likely will just raise the average for all the maps and not affect the end result one bit.

I also want to stress that the average quality of map submissions has also increased over the years so just because you do have a bunch of 7's or 8's that doesn't mean your voting is redundant. There are 17 maps, many of which have a very similar quality. Each map will have its own unique pros and cons but can still only be represented in value by a single number in the 4 categories.

I think it's just as valid to say that if your scoring is all over the place that this is not a better vote by default (where it might have been more valid in previous contests where the gap between experienced entrants and newbies was more apparent), though every individual is entitled to their opinion and may vote as such if they've had particularly bad or good experiences to justify extreme votes.

[Karnage]

Not sure if this has been answered before: how long is voting open for? I want to vote but I don't have enough time between exams to play all the maps (til 24th June)

awesome website btw :D

[grazr]

voting is open for as long as it needs to be. at least another week for the official judges to score and review.

[theharribokid]

I've banged together a webpage. It was supposed to happen a long time ago, but my internet died and some other stuff got inbetween. Well, anyway, here it is.. enjoy

http://asymmetrycp.tf2maps.net/

(Thanks to Fr0z3n for helping out!)

I was wondering, being that the German server is down at the moment, maybe you should link to the London server aswell at the bottom of http://asymmetrycp.tf2maps.net/.

Also because it's unnecessary to make anothor post about basically the same thing, someone should add the London server to our Game Servers page (and maybe update the map photos too)

[Fr0Z3n]

That link is the London server... the new london server we have, not Geits. Dunno what happened with Geits.

[grazr]

On a similar note, though, although the contest page links to the working london server our front page still points to the german server which has been discontinued.

[Ezekel]

is it just me or has anyone else noticed some of the voters give questionable values for technical and performance.
- i get the feeling that there may be a misunderstanding of what these categories mean, or perhaps, if the person dislikes the map they are just marking these down.

whilst i can understand the other categories are down to personal taste and opinion, issues like "are spawns broken" or "is there bad clipping" or even framerate or file size should be more consistent across the board. at the very least the distributions ought to line up a little better.


so i'm just saying: please check what these categories mean when you give them a score.

technical is things like:
- clipping
- cp functionality
- door functionality
- spawns
- resupply cabinets
- etc

performance is things like:
- file size
- fps
- good use of draw distance on props/overlays
- etc

[grazr]

My experience of the public opinion in the server is "OMG THIS ONE THING ISN'T CLIPPED, NOT VOTING FOR THIS MAP IT'S HORRIBLE".

This is why we value the public vote at 40% and judges as 60%. At least i believe this is still how we do it as we can't rely on quality critical thinking from random people on the internet.

I just played a public game (non-event) where we held CP1 on stage 1 on Mojave, then half the attacking team complained about imbalance and bad authorship with 1 round's experience; even when the teams were switched at the end of the round and we rolled stage one in under 4 minutes they complained about the map being broken and poorly balanced.

People are idiots. Go figure.

[MangyCarface]

People are idiots. Go figure.

While I'm sure we all know what you mean here I'm gonna make this my personal campaign on the forum, addressing an overall disdain for the average player. It's more appropriate to say that the average player lacks the filters we use when considering a map's merits... if anything the case you just cited points out that if a map aggravates team imbalance issues, especially in an a/d map that will switch sides at some point, the effect is exponentially felt- hence the importance of extremely-fine winrate tuning

[grazr]

The problem is a little unique here, though, don't you think? Most of the time such things are said about TF2 players in jest (if not with a little truth), we all know we should take feedback with a pinch of salt and as individual authors we can choose to ignore the less relavent comments and dilute them in a pool of other experiences to get a better understanding of the reality of the situation. "Players are dumb" Is merely an equivalent way of saying "sure, you got mugged just then, but at least you have your life"; to look at the bigger picture and don't feel so bad about it.

The "disdain" comes down to the fact that these ratings will be considered in the final calculation on equal terms with ratings by "people with appropriate filtering", ratings that include revenge votes from butt hurt players with biased opinions made from insufficient data.

A player should realise that when their team lacks a medic on offence that they will not fair well against defenders who do. That their loss is as likely to be from their team make up and/or skill as much as it is the environment design. But players, or people in general, don't like admitting fault on their part because it is humiliating. Rather, they retaliate in anger by blaming the author and the layout design for mistakes by other players/themselves. I'm not sure where fine tuning of win rates really resolves this situation. Especially when the notion itself is odd considering these projects were all made within a time limit; fine tuning doesn't really come into it.

*A vote should not be cast off a single isolated experience.
*When evidence to the contrary of your understanding is presented you should not be stubborn about your initial experience and accept that this is not a valid fault int he grand scheme of gameplay.
*When your team is steam rolled you should ask yourself whether it was your teams class make up, skill or experience on the map first: Some players will have more knowledge than you to exploit and that is not the maps fualt.

[yyler]

Actually I'm pretty annoyed with a "nearly perfect map" getting a solid 10. What would a perfect map get then?

Or the apparent lack of playtime on some of these maps. Or certain bad maps rating higher than certain good maps. I don't want to name actual maps here, and it isn't just about my own.

If the split is really 40/60 I want that adjusted. Or some of these posts just not counted. I can't believe we trust these people to do anything.

Some voters haven't even played all the maps, according to steam chat chatter.

I think in some places they are trying to rank the maps, or something. There's no other way to examine some of these votes; they're like bell curves. That's not what the votes should be like because 95% of them are high quality.

[littleedge]

Future contests (if they ever occur) shouldn't have the performance or technical categories. Only judges should be voting on performance and technical because those two are nearly fact, not opinion. Players shouldn't be able to skew votes that way. FPS remains a standard ratio between maps whether you get 100-300 on every map or 5-30. Clipping is something that can only be determined once and that's done with. Triggers working (capture zones and the like) are a one-time thing - does it work, or does it not, does it actually cover what is said to be the capture zone from the hazard strips on the ground.

[LeSwordfish]

To be honest i have not the slightest clue how to rate performance and technical. Aside from an in-depth analysis, which i dont have the time for, i can only guess really. "Um, yeah, runs fine, i guess. And i havent found many problems..." what does that translate into? 7, 7, 10, 10, 5, 5,?

[Ezekel]

best example of this problem is that last guy who voted and gave canyonfodder a 10 and then gave copperhead and slush both a 0 in asthetics...
i mean, what the hell, that's just not right or fair.

i get it he may have had a bad experience on those maps due to bad teams or whatever, but both copperhead and slush are properly detailed and interesting to look at.
again, i just don't think it's fair to vote in that way :(

[Fr0Z3n]

Well, it is fair to vote that way, he played it, he made his judgement. Now how accurate and educated it is, thats a different thing. When people asked for a blog post, I was under the assumption that people understood that we were going to public opinions that were going to be like this.

[Wilson]

Well i expected some common sense when people started rating maps, why would anyone rate copperhead (for example) detailing 0, i mean, it is about opinions and all, but 0? That is just not right.

[Fr0Z3n]

Well, that should technically be 1, becuase there is no 0 in the scale.

We can't tell people "Your wrong". we can suggest that they play the maps more and take a better, more open-minded look at the maps.

[EArkham]

Doh. Was trying to hit quote, not thanks, and I can't remove it. Oh, well, consider yourself thanked for something else you've done. <hand wave>

Well, that should technically be 1, becuase there is no 0 in the scale.

We can't tell people "Your wrong". we can suggest that they play the maps more and take a better, more open-minded look at the maps.

Actually, you can tell voters they're wrong. The voting is between 1-10 and votes of 0 are, to be blunt, wrong. Maps are disqualified for not following the rules; so should votes be.

That still won't stop people from voting all 1s on something if they're purposely trying to skew the results, but that sort of thing is expected honestly.

[stevethepocket]

Maybe we should use a poll that they have to sign in with their Steam ID to use, and that checks to make sure they've spent more than fifteen minutes in a map before they can vote on it.

You know, in the future.