[WIP] pl_valley (tentative name)

[necro]

Well, I'm only 5 days into this map, and I thought I'd post a few screenies already. This will be a payload map. The first stage is a mirrored setup where each team must push its own cart to the entrance of the enemy's mineshaft. Whichever team make it there first will then go on offense to push the cart the rest of the way thru the enemy's mineshaft.

I've always been hesitant to do natural settings because of framerate concerns, but now that I fully understand displacements, I'm goin crazy with em. And no noticeable framerate issues yet, even with no vis!

http://www.architechtools.com/tf2/pl040004.jpg
http://www.architechtools.com/tf2/pl040003.jpg
http://www.architechtools.com/tf2/pl040002.jpg

Lots more work to do still, but I'd love to get this in a playtest soon.

[necro]

here's the layout. pretty simple really. and the track length is almost identical to goldrush, so I hope I dont have scale issues like my last map

http://www.architechtools.com/tf2/pl040001.jpg

[TheDarkerSideofYourShadow]

Shit man, thats fucking beautiful.

[AWESOME-O]

Omfg, that looks so cool.
Finaly something else that industrial, Mining theme

[Half-Life_Maniac]

Only problem is now it looks like a Counter-Strike: Source map. As nice as it is..

Pretty interesting layout though.

[Spacemonkeynz]

But it uses HL2 textures and models, which will means if someone doesn't own HL2 they won't be able to play.

Plus the realistic textures of HL2 and the stylized ones of TF2 look totally out of place with each other.

And what type of computer do you have? Because if you have good frames on that, either your computer must be really powerful, or you'll running at really low settings.

And maps should be optimized to run on lower end computers as well, the official maps are a good example of the performance you should aim for.


However I must say that's some good work with displacements, looks very natural, well done.

[Snipergen]

Hey, this looks ok, but for a hl2 map. TF2 is diffrent! :) If I see 1 hl2 texture/model in the final I'm gonna kill you :D
Also, you have to change because people without hl2/ep2 will see a nice purple map with allll error signs!

[roninmodern]

Agreed, the hl2 textures have to go....at the very least so that people who don't own hl2 can play it - but stylistically they don't work. Can you see the stylized characters of tf2 running through that world? it would look like a cartoon running through the lord of the rings movies.

[Bonafide]

You guys are wrong. If you own TF2 then you have all the HL2 textures. The TF2 devs even use HL2 textures in the official TF2 maps.

Its a great lookin map and will hopefully be a pleasant change of scenery.

[Vander]

I think it looks awesome. I don't think it fits the TF2 theme. Regardless if you can see the textures or not, they could all be changed to fit the TF2 theme.

I like your layout and idea as well.

[drp]

damn this looks pretty sweet. doesnt fit the theme tho. but good work nonetheless.

[YM]

Hey, this looks ok, but for a hl2 map. TF2 is diffrent! :) If I see 1 hl2 texture/model in the final I'm gonna kill you :D
Also, you have to change because people without hl2/ep2 will see a nice purple map with allll error signs!

Agreed 100%


You guys are wrong. If you own TF2 then you have all the HL2 textures. The TF2 devs even use HL2 textures in the official TF2 maps.
Looks like there are some episode two props/textures in there, which no one without episode two installed will see.

[necro]

Appreciate the feedback guys. Lemme respond to some of the concerns.

First, the relatively few HL2-ep2 models I've used, like the trees, will get pak'd with the bsp.

Second, none of the textures (even the ones on the models) are default HL2. I've stylized the hell outta them to tone down the photorealism. I'll probably do even more work to add some more brush strokes and such. Trust me, I know how bad it looks pairing photo realistic textures with tf2.

Third, regarding the framerate, no I dont have a super computer. On Badlands, I regularly get 60 fps in spots. So if this map is getting 100+ even without a full vis, then I must be doing something right, no?

Lastly, OK, so this isnt a stock TF2 desert/industrial theme. Thats a bad thing? Whats wrong with a fresh look in a map?

BTW, I'm surprised noone commented on the real time reflections on the ice. HL2 doesnt support realtime reflections, no?

[tedrock]

i don't think they mean the theme as in rocky/woodsy doesn't match the TF2 team. it's the fact all the textures look to real that doesn't match the TF2 cartoonish theme.

also i always thought packaging other game content with your map was a real no no.

[AWESOME-O]

well i'm kinda up for some realism, atleast i dont have that see that industrial/mining theme, that is a good thing :thumbup1:

[Pseudo]

Have you set up the entities for payload yet? I fear that you may have trouble getting two simultaneous carts to appear in the HUD correctly.

[Trypto]

You guys are wrong. If you own TF2 then you have all the HL2 textures. The TF2 devs even use HL2 textures in the official TF2 maps.

You have to realize TF2 will be put on individual purchase seperate from the Orange Box, and that all the HL2 textures that were used will be included, not all of them entirely.

*This post is according to my knowledge*

[Pseudo]

Every install of TF2 includes an install of "half-life 2 content.gcf" as well as all of the Source shared content, according to this thread (http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=244). Anyway, for this map it's a moot point because:None of the textures (even the ones on the models) are default HL2.

[necro]

Yeah, its a bit gray. If you take content from another game and heavily modify it, is it really custom or not? I'm not too worried. My take is that we're expanding the content for TF2 which ultimately benefits valve, since it prolongs peoples interest in the game. So if taking a model or two from ep2 and modifying it should not be a big deal.

And yeah Pseudo, I did get both carts to work, thanks to help from the forums here. However, I couldnt get the HUD to display both tracks at once. It was one or the other. So I just disabled the HUD feature. Dont think its critical to the gameplay anyway

[Bonafide]

Yeah, its a bit gray. If you take content from another game and heavily modify it, is it really custom or not?

Its still not custom. Its like taking a painting and changing the filter in photoshop then saying its your own work :P

[drp]

please check the EULA before packing the content with the bsp.

[necro]

Its still not custom. Its like taking a painting and changing the filter in photoshop then saying its your own work :P
Exactly. I still give credit to valve for the textures. But I dont have a problem modifying them, since its valve's work in a valve product ultimately benefitting, you guessed it, valve. :)

Also, I know other user maps have packaged ep2 content. Like snowfort was using the same pine trees.

[YM]

Also, I know other user maps have packaged ep2 content. Like snowfort was using the same pine trees.
Since you're going to take that attitude:

The kids around the corner from my house take drugs. That doesn't make it legal.

[tedrock]

all i gotta say is look at your map in game and ask yourself "does this look like TF2?" because currently it looks like HL2 or CS:S. and i'm not talking about that fact it's not desert or industrial. the textures look far to real.

[necro]

Since you're going to take that attitude:

The kids around the corner from my house take drugs. That doesn't make it legal.

Indeed. When you put it that way, maybe I should sign up for rehab. ;)

all i gotta say is look at your map in game and ask yourself "does this look like TF2?" because currently it looks like HL2 or CS:S. and i'm not talking about that fact it's not desert or industrial. the textures look far to real.

Yeah, I'll work on that. They do feel a bit too real still. I was gonna try making the tree branches more like brush strokes for instance.

[Vander]

Pulled straight from the Valve Developer community, link here (http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Mixing_Game_Content)

"Mixing Game Content
From Valve Developer Community
It is not advisable to mix game content - use weapons/materials/models/maps from different Source games - if you wish to run your work on all players’ machines. This is because there is no guarantee that the person downloading your work has installed all the games required, and so there is no guarantee that your prospective player has all the materials/etc required installed.

If a material is missing, then it will be replaced with a purple and black chequered texture. If a prop model is missing, it will be replaced with the words ERROR displayed as a large red model. Other missing content may cause your work to not run at all. For example, you can not use the M4-A1 Weapon in a Half-Life 2 singleplayer mod because there is no way of ensuring that the people who play your mod also have Counter-Strike: Source installed and fully updated. Players who lack both games' respective files would get an error, and be unable to play your mod.

This is especially important when creating content which will be auto-downloaded from a multiplayer game server, or creating content for existing mods (e.g. a Counter-Strike map). It is, of course, less important when creating a single-player mod, since it will be possible to warn a player ahead of time what the requirements will be for running your mod.

Note: It is not acceptable to extract content from GCF files and redistribute it with your work as a way of getting round this restriction. This violates the Steam EULA."



I'm not bitching about what you are doing, just pointing you to the official word.

Word.

[Spacemonkeynz]

Exactly. I still give credit to valve for the textures. But I dont have a problem modifying them, since its valve's work in a valve product ultimately benefitting, you guessed it, valve. :)



Not really true.

You taking content (i.e textures) from one Valve product, modifying them, then placing them in another valve product.

Basically if someone just owns TF2, then if they download your map, they'll be getting HL2 content which they haven't payed for. Which is why it violates the EULA.

Giving credit is not enough, Valve has specifically said that we are not allowed to do it, and thats final.

[Gadget]

is it allowed to mix tf2 textures and include them with a custom map (without taking credit)? this one sentence from the EULA is not very specific about it: "You may use, reproduce and modify the SDK on a non-commercial basis solely to develop a modified game (a "Mod") for Half-Life 2 or other Valve products compatible with and using the Source Engine."

[Vander]

I believe it's referring to mods rather than maps for specific games.

Say I develop a mod that uses assets from both Portal and Ep2. The only people who could play it are people who already own those 2 games. Without both of those games, people can't play my game mod.

Anyway, how about we steer the conversation back to the WIP?

[AWESOME-O]

why does it haves to be not real?
i liked to see a map thats real in tf2, it may not fits in the game but it also can be a great experience

[Juice]

Always nice to see something different then farms.

[Snipergen]

Necro I swear to god if you don't change the theme that fits more with TF2 (cos you got the mapping skills and eye for detail why waste a good map with an awfull style issue) im gonna get someone to do the thing with you that stands on your avatar and you won't be the one on top!

[Ace]

Great idea.
Not sure about the look, but I'd love to see a good forest style TF2 map.

Its just making good TF2 grass...I've yet to find it, I just hope that someone will be able to make it, and make it right.

[necro]

lol! I sure stirred a hornets nest with this one. Little did I realize how controverial this'd be.

Well, I stylized the grass and gravel textures last night, which I hadnt done yet. Tweaked a bunch of the other textures too. You gotta realize guys, those pics were only 5 days into the map. So the final version will look very different I assure you.

I'm much more concerned with layout and playability. Aesthetics are easy for me. Scale and layout are not. My maps are usually pretty, but not very playable. So I want to get an early beta up for this center portion before I get too far. Maybe tomorrow I'll get something up on my server

[MayorMcCheese]

Keep it the way it is, it looks great. There are very few tf2 maps that have realistic textures in them.

[MangyCarface]

Keep it the way it is, it looks great. There are very few tf2 maps that have realistic textures in them.

There's a reason there are few in this category... It doesn't work.

At this point it's really not disputable whether HL2 textures look normal next to TF2 characters.

Try placing the models in HL2 settings with garry's mod. Doesn't work.

The map does look fantastic, however a simple texture swapout will do worlds for putting this map into a TF2 setting. Because that's as much a part of aesthetics as anything.

But the author has it right, playtesting is more important than aesthetics this early in. Looking forward to playing in on the next gameday, mate, be sure to submit it.

[tedrock]

Its just making good TF2 grass...I've yet to find it, I just hope that someone will be able to make it, and make it right.


what's wrong with the tf2 grass that comes with tf2 by default? nature/grass_03

[MangyCarface]

Oh, by the way, bump your graphics settings up to maximum when taking screenshots.
As good as those look... that's not the engine's best ;)

[necro]

sorry, forget that not everyone has broadband
: )

[necro]

OK, here are the latest pics. Also, I have the map up on the server, if anyone wants to try it out. I would really appreciate feedback on the layout before I go much further.

Server: 206.251.75.196:27015
Mapname: pl08
Servername: Necropolis Custom Map Server 1

http://www.architechtools.com/tf2/pl080000.jpg
http://www.architechtools.com/tf2/pl080001.jpg
http://www.architechtools.com/tf2/pl080002.jpg
http://www.architechtools.com/tf2/pl080003.jpg
http://www.architechtools.com/tf2/pl080004.jpg
http://www.architechtools.com/tf2/pl080005.jpg

[Vander]

Damn that looks nice.

[AWESOME-O]

save your bsp in real and tf2 style man, see what the folks actually want

[necro]

well, if someone wants standard tf2 desert/industrial/mining, I can point them to quite a few user maps. If someone wants a different environment, like a mountainy, snowy type map, hmm. Not too many choices. So sue me for trying to do something different :)

I really hope I get as much criticism on the layout as I already have on the aesthetics. When is the next playtest day?

[Vilepickle]

If he wants to make it realistic, I say let him. It's his map. It at least LOOKS good.

[R3dRuM]

How bout you make it like tf2...

You can use the same textures, but make them tf2...

[Noggin]

Great work Necro, that looks about 5 months in not 5 days in! (for me anyway)

Maybe if the skilled people of tf2maps can help make some TF2 style textures, I made some custom textures (in the files section) tho Im not sure they will work for this map.

[necro]

thanks guys
OK, I just got a little bit of playtest in. In general, I think the layout and scale is working. Some things I will fix though:

- River is a bit isolated once you fall down there. Gonna smooth out the banks in more spots to make it easier to get out
- Still not enough defensible spots for engies. I'll make the little shack a little more protected.
- Jury's still out on whether this'll be sniper heaven. 1 guy did tag me a couple times. Gotta study the sight lines and maybe add more trees.
- The friggin cart seems laggy for some reason. Not sure if HL2 has a prob with an animated prop tied to a train
- Gonna up the size of the ammo/med packs at the checkpoints
- Gonna add player clips to the fallen trees to make it easier to cross the river

[MayorMcCheese]

There's a reason there are few in this category... It doesn't work.


Not to start a huge debate but how many good tf2 maps have you played with realistic textures? It's hard to say how it will feel during actual game play.
I'd rather play with realistic textures than none at all (orange x)

[Chicky]

Hey necro.... I heard you joined the server after I left the other day. Too bad, cause I would have loved to talk to you and give you some feedback. Hope you don't mind, I nabbed your map for my 24/7 pl map server. There's so few pl maps that actually work right now. :/

Anyway, first let me address the textures. I've had many - and I do mean many - people who jumped on the server to see what your map was all about and not one person complained about the realistic textures. I think your textures is what makes your map so amazing. It looks absolutely beautiful!!!! I wouldn't change the textures - no matter what anyone else says!!! Maps do not need to be cookie cutter.

Second, while both carts worked, I didn't even notice that my team had a cart until the other team had already won. :o Might be good to add some sort of hud.... maybe something that shows if they've captured the first point at least? Also, is there a way to tone down the cart sound? It's so loud!

I noticed that in the river, there's a chunk of ice missing in one area. You can see down below the ice, but you don't fall through. Also, there seems to be some bushes or trees or something missing behind that because you can see back behind everything. Just something you'll wanna fix at some point - assuming you didn't know about it already.

Also, scouts can get up the mountain and see over everything - many things disappear or become hollow because of it. Didn't know if you were aware of that or not.

I'd love to see your next version of this map. I think it's absolutely amazing and it's definitely needed with the lack of good pl maps. Lots of people working on maps - not a lot of maps working good enough to be on servers. :/

[necro]

Hope you don't mind, I nabbed your map for my 24/7 pl map server.

No prob, though I should have named it pl_test or something. People keep thinking its a finished map :P

I wouldn't change the textures - no matter what anyone else says!!!

Thanks. I'm just ignoring any texture comments at this point. Its been beaten to death already.

Might be good to add some sort of hud....
Yeah, gonna have to fake it though, since the watchers dont support 2 carts.

Also, is there a way to tone down the cart sound? It's so loud!
Done. Hadnt noticed. Thanks.

And yes, I'm aware of the other issues and will tackle them soon enough. I've been more focused on making the map playable right now and will polish up the aesthetics later.

Constructive criticism like this is extremely valuable. Thanks for taking the time bud!

[Snipergen]

Man thats just stupid if you don't texture it tf2 style. [SNIP]

Why won't people get it ffs this game's art direction is superb and you are gonna motivate mappers to totally ignore it? Thats lame dude.

EDIT, on your new screens you just use some tf2 props and textures AND hl2 props and textures? That's even worse! Make up your mind.

[YM]

I'm affraid I have to side with snipergen once again.

TF2 is cartoony and set in the desert of the 1920s
If you want to have a map that is set in a different location and/or be realistic, go do it for some other game!

I really don't understand everyones problem with this. Its blatantly obvious, if people make realistic maps for TF2 they are just turning it into 'just another FPS' which it isnt, this ISNT CS:S, this ISNT DOD, this ISNT COD4.
This IS TF2 - where maps are set in deserts, where graphics are cartoony, where nothing is realistic.

In my opinion, and I'm sorry for this, your map does look really quite nice, but for Team Fortress 2, realistic maps do as much damage to the game as orange maps or maps like mario_cart.

[psihomir]

I agree with Youme, except for the desert part. Valve themselves said that they're working on 2 new maps set in a new environment (source (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=677150)) :) Plus, Granary for example isn't exactly in a desert - you can see a ship close by. I think that a lot of stuff can fit TF2's art style, if done right. I myself am quite satisfied how my snowy map is developing and it's very TF2-ish, if I can say so myself ;)

[Chicky]

Well isn't a desert either. Isn't 2fort supposed to be a farm or something?

[joshman]

I'm affraid I have to side with snipergen once again.

TF2 is cartoony and set in the desert of the 1920s
If you want to have a map that is set in a different location and/or be realistic, go do it for some other game!

I really don't understand everyones problem with this. Its blatantly obvious, if people make realistic maps for TF2 they are just turning it into 'just another FPS' which it isnt, this ISNT CS:S, this ISNT DOD, this ISNT COD4.
This IS TF2 - where maps are set in deserts, where graphics are cartoony, where nothing is realistic.

In my opinion, and I'm sorry for this, your map does look really quite nice, but for Team Fortress 2, realistic maps do as much damage to the game as orange maps or maps like mario_cart.
Sorry to disagree, but actually its 1963. Thats what the spawn room calender said.

[Arhurt]

I think that, you want to map for TF2, fine. You don`t want to bother with the textures, fine. just don`t expect everyone to like it. Most players don`t give a sh#t what the map looks like, but for those that do, you will not get the same praise as if you took the extra effort to make those textures TF2 style.

Is your map good? Yes.

Is it in line with TF2 art style? No.

Will people like to play on it? Yes.

Will people who understand the concept of TF2 and care about it like to play on it? No.

You are the one to decide if you want to keep it as it is or not, but I honestly belive that if you went trough the effort of putting TF2 fit textures in there you would have a 5-star map right there.

Do I like it in TF2 as it is?

No.

[Jive Turkey]

There are some real close-minded people on this board. Looking at those shots I feel the only textures which look out of place are the wood-siding and cobblestone textures on the sides of the buildings. They have that photographic look to them with too much visual noise going on. The other textures, in particular the grass/rocks/snow base palette look very good and are an especially welcome change of color scheme. The use of color overal is pleasing with good highlights from those red buildings. This map does not look too HL2.

Until some professional watercolorist with ample amounts of free time comes waltzing in here with a penchant for doing pro bono freelancing work we're going to be stuck using the same boring textures ad nauseum. The TF2 style nazis should go buy traditional art supplies and get to painting custom texture packs for us instead of whining. I like and respect the art direction of TF2, and I have been on maps which look too HL2, but you're just being too critical here. This map is looking good. It isn't as though any of these maps has the viral potential to infect every last server with a visual style you're not digging. Voice your criticisms all you want, but stop being so melodramatic and possessive of the community as a whole. Don't like how it looks? Refresh server list...

[Vander]

Necro, I think you have hit on something good here. Your layout and idea is so good that everyone just wants it to be the best that it can be.

I think the biggest concern from the "TF2 Style-Nazis" is that if you placed a bit more effort into getting the textures to fit the TF2 theme (not necessarily desert, but I'm talking that era in time along with the cartoonified look), you would be hitting a homerun here, no doubt.

I'll play it no matter what, but you have a lot of potential in this map! Put everything you got into it!

[TheBladeRoden]

Sorry to disagree, but actually its 1963. Thats what the spawn room calender said.

1968 actually

http://students.uww.edu/rodenja10/calendar.jpg

[Jive Turkey]

Damn they're right. Those clearly aren't 1968 rocks and grass. And that snow. That's 1970s snow at least. Don't get me started on that anachronistic 1880s overcast sky...

[YM]

My bad, the art style and building design is taken from the 1920s/30s whilst the game is set in the 60s
Still, my point remains the same, if you made a map set in a space station, it wouldn't fit, however awesome the map is, it doesn't conform to the theme of tf2.

I think this bit here summarises it perfectly.
I think that, you want to map for TF2, fine. You don`t want to bother with the textures, fine. just don`t expect everyone to like it. Most players don`t give a sh#t what the map looks like, but for those that do, you will not get the same praise as if you took the extra effort to make those textures TF2 style.

[Lord Ned]

(Didn't read pages 3-6 fyi)
Layout looks pretty good, but you may run into some... Issues.

It's a race to stop the cart, but what's keeping them from just defending their cart with like 10 scouts and having it rush to the point?

Also are you going to allow them to get on the top center piece? You could turn it into "Whoever owns the top controls the tracks" (Letting a sentry sit ontop. ;)), while it's still really easy to demolish.

Dunno.

[Arhurt]

Second, none of the textures (even the ones on the models) are default HL2. I've stylized the hell outta them to tone down the photorealism. I'll probably do even more work to add some more brush strokes and such. Trust me, I know how bad it looks pairing photo realistic textures with tf2.

(...)

Lastly, OK, so this isnt a stock TF2 desert/industrial theme. Thats a bad thing? Whats wrong with a fresh look in a map?

I`d love to see that extra effort taken to make the textures even more TF2-like. I`d say cut most of the detail from the ground and stone textures, maybe even enlarging them and then using the "cut-out" filter and "noise" with "render > clouds" to get them right.

As for the Theme, I'm glad to see something other than Industrial/Mining indeed.

And I think Vando hit the nail in the head here:

Necro, I think you have hit on something good here. Your layout and idea is so good that everyone just wants it to be the best that it can be.

[Godling]

...if you made a map set in a space station, it wouldn't fit, however awesome the map is, it doesn't conform to the theme of tf2.
The TF2 theme is about color, level of detail, construction style... etc. It is NOT about location (unless you want to argue that the game takes place on Arrakis). A space station would be awesome... IF it were done with a 60s' B-movie mentality. The best way to accomplish such a goal would be to allow inspiration to come from some 60s' sci-fi schlock... of which there are tons of examples.

[Arhurt]

Other games that come to mind when I think TF2 are the "No One Lives Forever" series, "Evil Genius" and the "Austin Powers" movies. All of them have space station/spytech at some point.

[joshman]

The TF2 theme is about color, level of detail, construction style... etc. It is NOT about location (unless you want to argue that the game takes place on Arrakis). A space station would be awesome... IF it were done with a 60s' B-movie mentality. The best way to accomplish such a goal would be to allow inspiration to come from some 60s' sci-fi schlock... of which there are tons of examples.
That'd be Awesome.

TO THE IMA MOBILE!

(IMA, meaning Internet Movie Archive)

[necro]

(Didn't read pages 3-6 fyi)
It's a race to stop the cart, but what's keeping them from just defending their cart with like 10 scouts and having it rush to the point?

Also are you going to allow them to get on the top center piece? You could turn it into "Whoever owns the top controls the tracks" (Letting a sentry sit ontop. ;)), while it's still really easy to demolish.
Dunno.

Good, this is the stuff I'm concerned with. I havent played much goldrush yet (which I probably should), so I'm nervous about this whole cart business.

So do you think the carts are too easily defended? I tried to address that by giving the attackers the high ground when they get close to the defenders base. I guess we wont know for sure til theres a full game.

I didnt quite follow your idea with controlling the tracks and sentry guns. I've clipped off the center bridge to prevent people sticky bomb jumping the entire map. I havent tested building a sg on top of the cart yet. Will do that.

[necro]

BTW, I think we've beat the texture issue to death. Frankly, there are VERY few user maps that even attempt custom textures. I wanted to create a different look, a different atmosphere. If that truly bothers you, dont play the map. Simple.

I've done my best to stylize the textures. I've run cutout filters in pshop til my fingers bled. Yes, theres more aesthetic work to do, but like I keep saying, I want to get the gameplay polished before I waste any more time on the eyecandy.

[Chicky]

Hey necro, since pl08 is running on one of my servers now, we could always get a game going with it one night so you can get a feel for it... if that helps.

[necro]

Thanks Chicky. :)

I was gonna submit for this weekends playtest. I've got a bunch of work to do on the map between now and Fri, so hopefully a newer version will be ready by Fri.

I havent really focused on the map lately. Friggin GTA4 is distracting me.

[Lord Ned]

Good, this is the stuff I'm concerned with. I havent played much goldrush yet (which I probably should), so I'm nervous about this whole cart business.

So do you think the carts are too easily defended? I tried to address that by giving the attackers the high ground when they get close to the defenders base. I guess we wont know for sure til theres a full game.

I didnt quite follow your idea with controlling the tracks and sentry guns. I've clipped off the center bridge to prevent people sticky bomb jumping the entire map. I havent tested building a sg on top of the cart yet. Will do that.


I didn't mean building them ontop of the cart sorry. ;)

Basically, your pushing a new idea here. Two carts which decide which team assaults and which defends. This sounds like a great idea.

But your map layout may need some balancing.

Your just gonna have to play it and see. It may be to easy for the enemy to camp your cart, or it may be to hard to take back the center of the hill after one gets it.

[Ace]

My bad, the art style and building design is taken from the 1920s/30s whilst the game is set in the 60s
Still, my point remains the same, if you made a map set in a space station, it wouldn't fit, however awesome the map is, it doesn't conform to the theme of tf2.

I think this bit here summarises it perfectly.

I point out to Youme here...
Isn't DJive doing a map called Space something or other??
And didn't you do quite a bit of helping with this?
(Also it has at the moment "real" (I think) grass, nobody has made any negative comments about this map - Sorry to DJive for dragging you in, but I feel this should be brought up)

Damn they're right. Those clearly aren't 1968 rocks and grass. And that snow. That's 1970s snow at least. Don't get me started on that anachronistic 1880s overcast sky...

LOL

what's wrong with the tf2 grass that comes with tf2 by default? nature/grass_03

Umm...Nothing, but ONE texture for grass compared to however many valve has for dirt/rock etc isn't alot, also its not great for forests only grassy plains, and I havn't seen any TF2 trees/plants, although there are probably a couple, but not a forest worthy amount/style.

Back to the map...
Loving the looks, I'll play it whatever you decide :)
My advise is take advise, but don't get forced against you own decisions, after all its your map.

[Chicky]

Lemme know when your new version is out. I'll definitely put it up on the server and see what people think. We had a nice long discussion in vent tonight (with about 25 people) about your map. So I'm sure we won't have any problem getting players.

[Sacrifist]

[EDIT] DJive [EDIT]

[Snipergen]

[EDIT] DJive [EDIT]

[trainRiderJ]

[EDIT] DJive [EDIT]

[DJive]

Guys chill out on the personal attacks, it needs to stop.


I point out to Youme here...
Isn't DJive doing a map called Space something or other??
And didn't you do quite a bit of helping with this?
(Also it has at the moment "real" (I think) grass, nobody has made any negative comments about this map - Sorry to DJive for dragging you in, but I feel this should be brought up)

no problems =)

I dont know the reasons, maybe people liked it, maybe people didn't want to get a pissy admin, ..maybe it felt still very tf2 *imo it still felt very tf2, i maed a point to try something different but to make the players feel like it fit in*

Plus i don't think anyone had to worry about me finishing it and releasing =p

[Fingersniffer]

[EDIT] DJive [EDIT]

[Sacrifist]

[EDIT] DJive [EDIT]

[DJive]

First is edits, second is bans. Guys STOP right now. keep it to topic or move it to PM

[necro]

Christ. I never thought this map would be so controversial.

OK, getting back on track here, I've been experimenting with the HUD. Apparently the team_train_watcher is greedy. The second you place one, it disables any other way of displaying control of CP's in the HUD.

Unfortunately, without the train_watcher, the train_recede commands dont work. So the train wouldnt slide backwards. I suppose I could setup a bunch of timers and triggers and crap, but I just dont have the patience right now. So the test map will be sans HUD icons.

I will try to get the announcer stuff working though.

[Vander]

I am REALLY looking forward to a playtest on this map. I'm excited by the concept you have. Keep em coming Necro! :D

[Lord Ned]

Dude, Valve is greedy. What did you expect. (I'm surprised you can make CPCTF maps at all)

Can you start with the Cp's disabled, then enable them after the game starts? What happens then?

Also you could make the train "stall" instead of sliding back? (Something like the wheels get stuck in the mud and blu has to sit next to it for 5 seconds before it moves forward again. Dunno)

[Kaiser]

I like the idea of 2 carts, but as always I don't like maps using textures not in line with TF2 Models and other maps. I don't want all TF2 maps to look the same, but I do want them to keep to the same style.
Looks great though as a WIP Source map, I think maybe use dustbowl/goldrush dirt-ground instead, and badlands red-wood, along with the trees you have now, could look really good and in style.

[R3dRuM]

I like the idea of 2 carts, but as always I don't like maps using textures not in line with TF2 Models and other maps. I don't want all TF2 maps to look the same, but I do want them to keep to the same style.


No kidding...

...

[necro]

LOL! You guys are just jackin with me now about the textures just to get my goat. OK, you're absolutely right. What was I thinking. I'll immediately change them to improve gameplay. :P

[Masakari]

Okay, I managed to fill up the test server this afternoon (Special thanks to |3eeron for pointing out this map on TheVille.org!), and we had a couple of notes:

-A cleverly placed sniper can snipe right into the enemy team's spawn, as well as snipe before setup is finished. I think a simple spawn door both in the supply room as well as a team barrier on the exits to the building will prevent spawn camping.
-The HUD missing gets *really* confusing. Would it even be possible to even get a CTF-like HUD in order to simply get a general idea of where the cart is?
-Some of the basic textures appeared to be screwed up on the map, or possibly the server. Things like melee weapons, the sniper's sunglasses, and a couple of the secondary weapons were turning purple. I'm not sure if it's the server or the map though...
-As mentioned before, there's a part of the ice that's missing textures.
-On the ice topic, I'd rather have some physical boundaries to show where the movable ice ends as opposed to hitting the invisible wall.
-All twelve people gave a big thumbs up to the non-TF2 style textures. I'm on your side :)

All in all though, everyone was highly impressed with the map. I look forward to your next update!

[Juice]

in b4 pl_drought

[Lord Ned]

Needs cubemaps placed and built. (To fix the pink)

[necro]

Okay, I managed to fill up the test server this afternoon (Special thanks to |3eeron for pointing out this map on TheVille.org!), and we had a couple of notes:

-A cleverly placed sniper can snipe right into the enemy team's spawn, as well as snipe before setup is finished. I think a simple spawn door both in the supply room as well as a team barrier on the exits to the building will prevent spawn camping.
-The HUD missing gets *really* confusing. Would it even be possible to even get a CTF-like HUD in order to simply get a general idea of where the cart is?
-Some of the basic textures appeared to be screwed up on the map, or possibly the server. Things like melee weapons, the sniper's sunglasses, and a couple of the secondary weapons were turning purple. I'm not sure if it's the server or the map though...
-As mentioned before, there's a part of the ice that's missing textures.
-On the ice topic, I'd rather have some physical boundaries to show where the movable ice ends as opposed to hitting the invisible wall.
-All twelve people gave a big thumbs up to the non-TF2 style textures. I'm on your side :)

All in all though, everyone was highly impressed with the map. I look forward to your next update!

Thanks. I'll be sure to address most of these things for this weekends playtest. Ashame I couldnt have joined you guys.

The HUD thing is really bumming me out now. Everyone seems to concur that its really important. But I have no clue how to even patch something together. :(

[necro]

OK. New version is up on my server:

Server: 206.251.75.196:27015
Mapname: pl_ravine_test01
Servername: Necropolis Custom Map Server 1

I'll probably start a new WIP thread with the final name. And this will be the map I submit for this weekends playtest.

[DJive]

And this will be the map I submit for this weekends playtest.

Necro;

If you're talking about the gameday we hold on the weekend (http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=2196) Maps need to be in by tomorrow at 5pm East.

If you weren't talking about our gameday.. i would still love to see it submitted to to it to get a good playtest =)

[Vander]

Sweet! I'll be checking this out tonight after work.

[Masakari]

Stupid question, but I wonder if it would be possible to get a CTF-like HUD set up just to get the general idea of where the different carts are? I'm no expert in Hammer, but I wonder if attaching the flags to the cart in an unpickupable spot and using that HUD wouldn't screw up gameplay?

[R3dRuM]

BTW, i exploited this map to get out of it and grief in MANY places on many servers.

p.s looks like poo

[Vander]

BTW, i exploited this map to get out of it and grief in MANY places on many servers.

p.s looks like poo

What our friend is trying to say is that your map is already on multiple servers in the TF2 community! Congrats!

Woohoo!

[R3dRuM]

Many servers meaning my local host.

[necro]

What our friend is trying to say is that your map is already on multiple servers in the TF2 community! Congrats!

Woohoo!

Thanks for translating. ;) I'll assume "looks like poo" is a compliment too.

[drp]

BTW, i exploited this map to get out of it and grief in MANY places on many servers.

p.s looks like poo

have a nice 7 day vacation from the site.

[dirtyminuth]

necro, you've put some work into this map, and it looks great! I'm yearning for a significant departure from the standard TF2 visual theme. You'll have people yelling at you in one ear and congratulating you in the other. Congrats from my side of things :)

I hope you submit this for the next gameday, if you haven't already.

[AWESOME-O]

have a nice 7 day vacation from the site.

l0000000000l

[ImBack]

have a nice 7 day vacation from the site.

Thanks for the ban, really appreciate it...

Ban this account to, i dont really mind, as you dont really care, or need me.

Peace

[Lord Ned]

Nice, you can log out.

Ps. It's a banme post, give him an ip ban too. ^.^

[drp]

Thanks for the ban, really appreciate it...

Ban this account to, i dont really mind, as you dont really care, or need me.

Peace



making more 'AE' accounts will result in IP ban.
wait out your ban, learn your lesson. no hard feelings.
this site doesnt not tolerate trolling or bad fellowship.

i try and be extra lenient with the members, but the ban hammer has to come down at some point.

[MayorMcCheese]

Did you make the cart model too? That thing is great.

[necro]

OK, playtest was really helpful. Not a whole lotta suggestions in game, but seeing a real game in action was invaluable. These are my major issues I think:

- Optimization! People were bitching bout framerates. I usually dont dip below 90 fps on my map, when in badlands, some spots dip below 60. So I thought it was alright, but I'll do some more tweaking.

- Snipers! Way, WAY too sniper friendly. As much as I hate to do it, the cliffs around the water towers need to be made inaccessible. I was thinking it'd be a good teleporter location, but screw it.

- Speaking of teleporters, they seem kinda useless since you're right in the heat of action after spawning. Not sure what I should do bout that, if anything.

- I still dunno why the cart jerks u around when you're behind it.

- I also dunno why the map always changes mid-round. I thought I told it to wait til all the mini-rounds are completed.

[TheBladeRoden]

also you can shoot though the cart

[Vander]

A couple of small things:

pic#1: this door doesn't raise or lower. It just disappears when you get close.

pic#2: rope going through floor, consider raising model.


I really, really like this map. With a bit of tweaking to take away from it being a sniper heaven, it can be very good. I think your ammo and health may be a bit too close together at the "doors" for the setup point. A smart scout can run in circles constantly refilling his health/ammo.

I also like what you are trying with the textures. You're not there yet, but it definetly does NOT look realistic. You are on the right track my friend! Great change of pace and the cart is brilliant!

[necro]

thanks guys. Added to the to-do list.

BTW, what do you all think. Leave it pl_Valley or change to pl_ravine? Or is there a better name?

[TheDarkerSideofYourShadow]

1. You can shoot through the cart, as Roden said.
2. Overlapping brushes at the top here:
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l35/TheDarkestShadow_2006/TF2/pl_valley/pl_ravine_test010006.jpg
3.Snipers

I wouldn't restrict access to those tree areas, it was fun going up there. I had a really good sniper battle with someone, though we never used the rifles. Maybe just make some part of the track covered (like 2fort bridge covered)?

Was a fun map, and looks pretty, even if it doesn't jive with TF2. Hopefully you're able to get some kind of Hud set up.

[Nosher]

Wow !! 11 pages of opinion!!

Necro - looks nice mate - once I pull myself away from C2Arms, I will deffo have a looksee.

I personally prefer the Tf2 theme and just wish we had more of a prop library to pick from...

That said, I can also see you have put in some hard work here and it looks very nice.

By posting in this forum, you have allowed peeps to give their opinion - and thats good - from all of the replies, you will find a clutch that will really come in handy - you will also recognise the really helpful peeps - some of whom (and you know who you are!) have helped me no end!!

Keep up the good work mate!
Regards,
Nosh.

[necro]

OK, a second test version is done and running on my server. Couldnt solve the HUD issue, but I did put a series of text notifications and a siren near the end. I'll probably try a few more tricks, but for now the center area is done. I do still need to flesh out the detail work, especially around the blue mineshaft.

But this is a very playable version. Hopefully by the next playtest I'll have the second stages in place (inside the mineshafts).

Oh, and I'll probably leave it named valley, unless anyone has a better suggestion.

Server: 206.251.75.196:27015

[necro]

oops, just realized pakrat grabbed a wrong texture. I really did not intend for the snow on the ground to be yellow : P

[Juice]

Gave it a run, its amazing with all the texutres. One thing you need to do is edit the ice so you slide on it!

[necro]

You do actually. : )

[BanditBBS]

I put pl_valley_test02 on my server which was full with 24 players. I did a vote to see who liked it, 24 yes votes were cast :) When the map timer ran out though nothing happened, so I tried to issue the suddendeath command and it crashed my server. Other then that, one hell of a map!!!

[Noggin]

I cant find any server running this :(

Link to download?

[Solynth]

OMFG What is wrong with some of you people. He used the cutout filter on the textures, there not realistic take a closer look! How doesn't it fit the TF2 style there cartoony they dont have tonnes of detail in them. Are you suggesting he makes a map that is the same as everyone else's? So it just has the default desert textures? How can you say all of this just because he's making the textures different from all your maps? Your all making a big deal out of nothing just pay attention to the layout and the gameplay, not the textures because they are fine. Your map looks fantastic don't let everyone make you change your textures, I can't wait to play it.

[Laz]

although taking a bit of a jump and risk here, I think the maps looks quite ok. it might start looking a bit like cartoon characters in a real world, but movies like that have been made (Space Jam, etc) and they turned out ok.

you took the "custom" concept and made it your own.

also its a nice and simple map,

only thing Im a bit scared off would be the performance.

good job :)

[Noggin]

Is this map called pl_valley or pl_ravine?

[Crap]

I played version test02 of this somewhere and really liked it. Everyone thought the map was gorgeous, and although there were comments like "wow, it's like we're not playing tf2", they weren't negative. It's nice to have something different sometimes.

Would really love to see/run a newer version of this on my server if you have a newer playable version.

The map was sniper friendly, but there are tons of maps out there that are pyro heaven, or soldier kills all and such, but people only ever seem to complain about snipers...:huh:

Add a bit more cover and it should be fine ;)

[Noggin]

This map is now perfect for the new Alpine materials!