Should inactive group members be dropped?

[Immortal-D]

Like the title says. Between work and other stuff, I've been cross-referencing people who are both in the group, and have not registered/posted on the forum. I'd really like to hear what everyone thinks about this. It's fine if people just wanna browse and such, but despite my best efforts, said people have yet to tell me that they still wanna be a part of this community. Should I drop the inactive Steam group members? How long, if at all, before we move on to the forum?

On the one hand, I think it would help create a much tighter community. Everyone who is there is genuinely interested in creating custom stuff for this awsome game. On the other hand, I don't want people getting all freaked out about needing to post. I'll say again, if peeps just wanna browse and download, that's totally fine. But for those who don't say so, what should we do?

[Intraman]

Well, inactive members are hard for any community, especially a young growing one like ours. I know there are alot of people in the steam group that only use the chat. Perhaps you can make an announcement encourging them to register to the forums and such. As for removing them, I don't think that's a good idea. Maybe if they're inactive for 6 or a year, but we haven't been around that long. So *shrugs*

[Shmitz]

I don't think the forum and the steam group should necessarily be tied together like that. On the other hand, if we've never seen them on the forum or in the steam chat and they haven't logged onto steam in, oh, a month, it's probably safe to drop them. They're always free to join it again if they become active again.

EDIT: I mean a month in relative terms, of course. With recent holiday time, I'd expect more leeway. =P

[Immortal-D]

Right now I'm concerned mainly for the Steam group. Dropping peeps from the site is something drpepper and I will have to go over more in depth.

[Shmitz]

That's what I meant too. On the other hand, I only saw like three or four people in the group who hadn't logged on in a month or more, so I don't know how helpful that is for housecleaning.

[DJive]

On the one hand, I think it would help create a much tighter community. Everyone who is there is genuinely interested in creating custom stuff for this awsome game. On the other hand, I don't want people getting all freaked out about needing to post

I agree on the steam group. Its awfully fusterating to see this everytime i join chat.

5 in-chat
23 in-game
89 online

I think its mostly because people will join for a day then never go back to it. I think the steam group should be cleaned IMO. Plus for anyone just joining think of how you would see it...

Would you rather see 5people in chat, 10 people online or see 5 people in chat, 98 online? 5/10 right? why because it shows we are a dedicated bunch who are here to help and are intrerested in making the community/maps/ better. Where are 5/98 shows that no one cares.

at least in my opinion.

[Shmitz]

One other reason I'm in favor of dropping inactive members is because the group is big enough that the steam friends list refuses to display it anymore, and you can't select any group members to invite to the group chat.

[TheBladeRoden]

no one even ever uses the chat in my other group
IGN PC
270 Members - 0 Chatting, 9 In-Game, 80 Online

[DJive]

no one even ever uses the chat in my other group
IGN PC
270 Members - 0 Chatting, 9 In-Game, 80 Online

Difference is that group doesn't have a main purpose. Its a bunch of people who play games. tf2mappers is people who map and in general need other people to help *questions, play testing, advice*

[Immortal-D]

I've made up my mind. As of this posting, I'm going through the Steam group and thinning the ranks.

[ryodoan]

Hmm.... well it looks like I am to late, but I dont think its a good idea... It can not hurt us to have the extra people in the steam group and it will only help for when you post new events we will get more exposure to people that are obviously pre-inclined to play a custom map.

I think trimming people from the steam group is a bad idea because

its a waste of time, people will continue to join and go inactive
B. You will undoubtably drop someone that was just lurking and they will not be motivated enough to rejoin
Event notifications go out to everyone, even if they are inactive so it gets our name out there.
Its not hurting anyone to have a large group.
Whats your criteria? You didnt even know that I had a channel bot running after it had been up for over 2 weeks, there is a HIGH probability you will kick someone on accident and piss them off for no reason.
If you want it narrowed down so people fit on your friends list again, I think a better idea would be to just invite everyone you see in the chat room or know is active in the group because we want this group to grow and it cant grow if we keep kicking all the people who go inactive for a bit.As for the forums the same reasoning applies, dont kick them from the site its not like they hurt anything by just being members.

[Big Nick Digger]

sorry but i can't think of any good reason to trim people from a website or steam group unless they have violated a rule or broken TOS. It just doesn't make sense :\

but its your place not mine... :p

[Cdsand]

I AM ALIVE I AM ALIVE I AM ALIVE.


Phew... dodged a bullet there...

[What Is Schwa]

I was just kicked from your TF2 group.

This has been a busy time of year for me, as I expect it has been for most. I joined the TF2 Mappers Group thinking it would be a casual thing, I didn't realize I was required to buddy up with the admins to preserve my status.

The kick has had absolutely no effect on me: I can still join the chat room, I can still post on the forums, and I can still make my TF2 maps. It certainly seems like a pointless gesture, one that says to me "we don't want you in our group."

Is that how you intend to grow the community?

-Aaron

[MacNetron]

[...]
5 in-chat
23 in-game
89 online
[...]
Would you rather see 5people in chat, 10 people online or see 5 people in chat, 98 online? 5/10 right? why because it shows we are a dedicated bunch who are here to help and are intrerested in making the community/maps/ better. Where are 5/98 shows that no one cares.

at least in my opinion.
Well, in my case, Steam gets started when I boot my PC. So I come home from work, turn on the PC, mac online, go cooking, mac online, go eating, mac online, doing some dish washing, mac online...
Doesn't mean I'm ignoring the community, I'm doing other useful things.

[ryodoan]

Thanks for your reply here, I have talked to Immortal-D in the chat and even after debating with him he still felt kicking people from the group was the best idea. I am still opposed to it and I will be sure to redirect him to these last couple posts (mostly to rub in that I was right :p)

[Youme]

I've just started being an active member here and was about to join the group but this thread has frightened me away from the idea.

[Immortal-D]

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter guys, honest and true. However, I stand by my decision. Schwa, for what it's worth, I apologize. Though you are the first person who was kicked and actually was still with us. To be honest, I really resent the notion that you feel one needs to be friendly with an admin to be part of this community, that's just plain wrong. And Youme, I'm sorry you feel that way. The chat room is a wonderful resource, and good comradery too. I believe I was incredibly generous on the matter. People were removed from the Steam group ONLY if they had both not registered on the forum, AND not shown up in chat. Hate to say it, but this is not a closed matter, as I occasionally speak w/ Drpepper about considering a certain amount of inactivity time before removing from the site. I'm going to leave this thread open, but lets keep it civil.

[What Is Schwa]

--

[What Is Schwa]

I really resent the notion that you feel one needs to be friendly with an admin to be part of this community, that's just plain wrong.

Don't take it personally. That was my first impression upon learning I had been kicked. You are correct that I wasn't an involved member. However, I got kicked because I didn't know you.

I joined the TF2 Mappers Group because I intended to use it eventually, in the same way one bookmarks an interesting webpage. I wanted access to the central hub for TF2 maps. I wanted a link to a large group of people that had expressed interest in mapping.

I'm not interested in idling in a chat room with other fluent hammer geeks. That certainly is useful, but it isn't a complete community. I want to bounce ideas off professionals and amateurs, builders and players, casual and hardcore.

-Aaron

[Intraman]

This is a prefect example on why I said that if inactive members are to be kicked it should only be if they haven't logined for many months. Definately no less then 6 months.

[ryodoan]

This is a prefect example on why I said that if inactive members are to be kicked it should only be if they haven't logined for many months. Definately no less then 6 months.

Or just don't kick them at all... :mellow:

I have yet to see a single significant reason to kick people from the group. If there was a good reason, then I would be for it, but there has not even been a coherent argument presented by those for the kicking.

I presented an entire list of arguments against kicking people, yet without responding to a single one, people were kicked.

My final question is if its not open for debate then why title the thread "Should inactive group members be dropped" the title should be, "Inactive group members WILL be dropped."

*Note* I am using the definition for "Argument" which is defined by: "a fact or assertion offered as support for a position"

[Immortal-D]

I never once said this issue was not open for debate. That's the whole reason I created this thread. If I didn't care about what you all thought, I wouldn't have started this thread lol. I'm sure you didn't mean to put words in my mouth, so no hard feelings :p Now then, I have said countless times that if people just want to browse, that is perfectly acceptable. You don't have to be registered in either Steam group or the website to read through the discussions here. All the forums are open to public viewing. I'm not convinced that removing people from the Steam group was a bad idea. With the exception of Schwa (again, my bad), those who were kicked hadn't even registered here, nor were they seen in chat.

If every single one of them came to this site to browse, their removal won't affect that in the slightest, and it helps me know who is still active. And Intraman, even I think that 6 months is rather harsh lol. IF drpepper and I ever decide to do this for the website, we're going to be a bit more generous. To be fair, only the 3 or 4 of you have voiced protest. I honestly think you're making a bigger issue about this than is necessary. Kicking inactive members isn't really a big deal in my mind. Though I am always willing to entertain convincing otherwise.

[ryodoan]

Ok, lets look at the numbers according to this thread because this is the only place I see it being discussed.

For Kicking: 3
Immortal-D - Tighter Community
Shmitz - No stated reason.
DJive - To improve the Chat / In-game / Online ratio

Against Kicking: 4
Ryodoan (Paul) - multiple reasons
Big Nick Digger - Unless they violate a rule or TOS
What is Schwa - Got Kicked for inactivity
Youme

No State Opinion or other: 4
Intraman - sorta against, but maybe if inactive for 6 months or a year
TheBladeRoden - no statement of opinion
Cdsand - said he was alive.
MacNetron - explanation of why he appears inactive.

So, now we have a total of 8 people commenting on this issue, (not counting Roden, Cdsand, and MacNetron because they stated no opinion), and of those eight, 4 said don't kick at all, 3 said kick, but offered no terms for the kicking other than "Inactive" and one stated that they dont think kicking is a good idea, but if we do kick after 6 months minimum of inactivity.

So far from having a small minority against the kicking, we seem to have a slight MAJORITY against kicking.

My next point.

The stated reasons FOR kicking are:
To promote a "Tighter" community. (Immortal-D)
To improve the Chat / In-game / Online ratio (DJive)The stated reasons AGAINST kicking are:
The first thing I want to hit on is that i think the Chat / In-game / Online ratio is kinda bogus. Nobody looks at it, and quite frankly if you go by our numbers we have one of the most active chat rooms out there.
Its a waste of time because people will continue to join and go inactive. Kicking people will become a 24/7 job where you are constantly kicking people from the group.
You will incorrectly kick people. My chat bot got kicked because you did not recognize it. You dont know everyone that has ever joined the chat room, and it is impossible to tell who has just lurked in the forums.
We have no set criteria for how we kick people. If this does become an official position we need to have set rules for this. "6 months of inactivity which consists of not logging into steam for 6 months and not responding to emails for 2 weeks."
Having a large group full of inactive people hurts no one. In fact it will help the group grow because we will rank higher on the Steam group list helping new people
How do you define Tighter Community? One definition I can think applies here, and what you might be referring to is community with a smaller number of members all of which are active. How is this goal achieved by kicking inactive members? Yes you will get rid of all the people who were not currently actively participating, but it does not change the number of active members we have in the group.I think this post pretty much summarizeup the entire thread so far, and I have yet to see a significant reason to remove people from the group.

I hope everyone takes the time to actually read this post and don't just glance over it.

[What Is Schwa]

I had intended to use TF2 Maps as a place to bounce ideas off people.

I have randomly contacted people who were in the TF2 group and online to ask for opinions of projects I am working on. I am most interested in the guy who has no experience with the engine as they are the ones who most resemble the average end user. I actually LIKED the lurkers, because to me they were a resource that is unavailable anywhere else: They are people who have expressed an interest in custom TF2 maps, but aren't necessarily mappers.

Every stranger I contacted through TF2Maps has been incredibly happy to oblige my requests. They all have said something along the lines of "I think it is neat to be involved with a beta test, thanks."

By kicking people you have actually made TF2Maps less useful to me.

-Aaron

[Shmitz]

I should probably qualify my "for" statement, given the debate this has become.

To clarify what I have said in this thread, it probably wouldn't be a problem to drop people only if they have not logged on to steam in a long time. It should have nothing to do with whether or not we have seen them in chat, and I definitely wouldn't tie group membership to forum membership. Absence from chat or forum would only be a symptom of an inactive member, not a qualification for being removed.

Even Schwa shouldn't have a problem with that, because you wouldn't be removing lurkers, just people who aren't even making themselves available to the community.

But that's only a reason why I'm not against it, which is different from a reason why I would be for it. The only reason I would be for it is because with the group over Steam's dumb friends limit, you can't invite people into the group chat. Not being able to invite group members into the group chat is very frustrating, and I'd much rather be able to get lurkers more active than worry about offending someone by making them put forth the great effort required to rejoin the group once they renew their interest in TF2.

But, I must qualify even this statement. I don't think the ideal solution to that problem is to cull the member list. I think steam chat is severely limited, annoying, and buggy. I would much rather move the chat to an IRC channel, because I think the benefits would outweigh the loss of chat invite and joining a server someone else is playing on (which doesn't work if you already have TF2 open anyway). This is somewhat a separate issue, but suffice to say if we moved the chat to IRC, I would no longer think there to be any reason at all in favor of removing group members.


That was a lot longer than I thought it would be. But yeah, that's my thoughts on the matter.

[ryodoan]

hmm this should have been made a poll...