Consolidated List

[DrHaphazard]

Edit: I apologize for leaving this thread out in the lurch, I became very busy all of a sudden. I have revised the list as seen below. I have included the removed items in my post on page 3 and the reason i took it out. I will also be working on that darn letter which i thought I would have done a week ago.

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Sorry for creating a second post on the matter, especially after the first one has been stickied, but I thought this would be the best way to do this. Allow a fresh start for this editted list. Now it hasnt been editted too much, the language would need to be unified better for a real one. Mainly I want to make sure we dont have any bogus stuff on our list. I have numbered each item so that people can easily refer to them.

As always theres some suggestions at the end that dont seem to fit the other categories. I may not realize that they can fit in a category so please tell me.

CTF

1. Allow CTF return timer to be changed in Hammer
2. Create a speed penalty variable for all flags so player can be slowed/sped up. Preferably a percentage of normal speed.
3. Fix the multiple flag problem (one flag carrier can carry an infite number of his team's flag.)
4. Allow for CTF maps to have a Setup Time and allow each team to place the intel at a certain point in the map before the match begins
5. I would also like to see CTF scoring based upon flag possession / time

FILTERS

6. Allow a way to filter player classes
7. Allow a way to filter weapon damage
8. filter_activator_name appears to be broken for TF
9. Allow a way to filter out flag carriers

SCORING

10. Ability to set cap limit in hammer (could be overwritten server side)
11. Allow for other scoring systems than CP/CTF, such as a gradual scoring system, that can be displayed in the HUD
12. A way to modify/control the text displayed during a round win. (e.g. "BLU captured the intelligence 3 times" and "RED successfully defended until time ran out")
13. A more direct way to manupulate team score. Having to tie a game_score entity to a trigger_multiple with a filter_activator_tfteam is awkward and leads to some unavoidable bugs.
14. fix the game_score entity (I haven't personally tested this, but I've read that it does not have the ability to alter individual player scores correctly, only team scores. Please tell me if that is incorrect, I really wanted to use this entity for custom objective rewards in maps.)


HUD

15. The option for turning OFF any auto-HUD stuff that the mapper doesnt need for his map
16. Allow both CP HUD icons and CTF HUD icons on at the same time
17. Custom HUD element entity. The entity lets you define where on the screen they go, and what is linked to them (state of an entity, compass position of an entity, etc) how many elements (1/2/3+ flag markers?)


MODELS

18. Add the ability to automatically embed custom models and textures into your map from Hammer (during the compile process, if possible)
19. I would like model filtering by models used in TF2 - the option is there, but doesn't seem to work at all
20. Incorporate the custom model compiler into either the XSI Mod Tool or Hammer. Having it as a seperate step between the two is inconvenient and confusing for many people

ENVIRONMENT

21. Ability to use fire as part of the environment in TF2 maps
22. Ability to create brushes/entities that the pyro can light on fire
23. Ability to create clip brushes that can block only certain projectiles.

ENTITIES

24. Give many of the entities (cap zones, flags, doors, any moving/togglable brush entity) something like the Goal# system TFC had, in which you could set certain things to only interact with certain other things.
25. Make func_rotating work
26. Make func_nogrenades work

--------


27. A way to limit classes (or disable altogether) and perhaps a way to change the limits as objectives are met
28. A way to control max spawn time, not just min spawn time. Even if min spawn time is set to 5 seconds, ingame it still gets as large as 15 - 20 seconds randomly.
29. A way to implement a hydro-style (territory control) overview map/window for non-TC game types.

[Youme]

Thats a good list. If we even manage to get a quarter of those we will have done well. :D

[DrHaphazard]

Well I'll start with the editting questions:

4. Should probably have specific examples as to how some CTF gamestyles are broken

15. Aren't there fairly easy ways to increase someones score? I have not looked into this

18. This suggestion sorta encompasses the first two, but I thought we could start of small and then point out that a fully customizable HUD would be ideal.

26. Would love to have more details from Boojum on this one.

27. Might be asking a bit much, since I am sure these entity limits apply to all valve games

TEXTURES - I am nervous about including this section since of course we could always make the textures ourselves, even though its a laborious process. Don't wanna appear lazy. Is there a precedence for valve releasing texture packages just for mappers?

42. Does this error apply to only TF2? If it happens for all games then valve is probably aware of it.

[Jive Turkey]

If I'm not mistaken, the problem with the game_score entity is that it will increase one's kill count, but not one's actual score as seen in the tab menu. Thus there is no way to alter an individual's score other than the mechanics inherent to TF2's core gameplay. The entity is there, it just doesn't work properly.

I have to agree with your sentiments on textures/assets. It is not something which is out of our control so it is not really something for which we need to petition Valve. Game content is the most expensive part of development and it would be foolish to ask Valve to pull their artists off of more important projects. There are plenty of idle artists out there. We should start looking for them. Besides, we'll surely get new textures with Valve's new map releases.

As for things specific to Hammer and the editting tools, I just recently found this thread (http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Talk:Valve_Hammer_Editor) on the wiki which may or may not be more appropriate for such requests/suggestions.

[phatal]

I'd like to see the shadowing fixed as mentioned in my thread here (http://tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=665). 1 room with 1 light, but the props get their shadowing from an EXTERIOR light_env and nothing from the light in the room with the prop.

[TheBladeRoden]

34. Drop Hammer and look into using Blender instead

might be a bit demanding

[Haas]

maybe split it into addons wanted and bug fixes because de bug fixes will have priority
edit okey there no bug fixes then i mean small modifications and addons.

[dirtyminuth]

I'd argue that we present a subset of this list that focuses on expanding TF2 gameplay options. This includes items 1-18, 26-29, 35-37, and 41. Many of the other items require significant investments in time and don't provide additional gameplay options (extra textures, entity limit, lighting preview expansion (env, smoothing), model scaling).

If that's not agreeable, then divide our list into TF2 Gameplay Options, Development Process Improvements (e.g. integrated model compiling), and Content Requests.

I'm just imagining Valve getting this huge list and thinking we're demanding too much. Instead, we should focus on what's most important (which I argue is expanding gameplay options).

[Jive Turkey]

34: Yea, Hammer is a Constructive Solid Geometry modeller, whereas Blender is a Surface modeller from what I understand. They're fundamentally different approaches to 3D editting software.

[Immortal-D]

I've become really fond of this idea since I got it; a tool that will allow us to convert normal textures into the cell-shaded TF2 style. This would really help alleviate the issue of having a relatively small number of style choices.

[Sean of the Dead]

wtf?!?! u do u hate ladders?!?!!?

[DrHaphazard]

OMG! I do hate ladders...heh i'll throw that in there.

Well lookin at this list I am also a bit concerned we may be throwing too much at valve at one time. And I agree that we might wanna focus on those things that help expand gameplay options, i.e. the filters options, the CTF stuff and the ones that deal with other forms of scoring.

[A Boojum Snark]

Well I'll start with the editting questions:
26. Would love to have more details from Boojum on this one.
I'll try to get up a more detailed explanation of it. Complicated issue so something I need to think on and not just whip up a post... I think.

Sean: Seeing as ladders were explicitly removed from the code for gameplay reasons by the devs, I'd find it highly unlikely they would put them back.

[Sean of the Dead]

I'll try to get up a more detailed explanation of it. Complicated issue so something I need to think on and not just whip up a post... I think.

Sean: Seeing as ladders were explicitly removed from the code for gameplay reasons by the devs, I'd find it highly unlikely they would put them back.

dammit! y do they hate ladders? ther're so much better!

[A Boojum Snark]

You move slowly on them, cannot maneuver, they're bottle-necky... many of the same reasons they did not include any elevators in their maps.

[A Boojum Snark]

Naughty me, doubleposting and all, but I thought it'd be better than editing something this big into something that small... sooo...

Two integral entities in TFC were info_tfgoal (and a brush-based version of this) and item_tfgoal.
info_ was a rather generic entity, usable for map/gameplay logic, resupply bags (they had a model field), lots of stuff. item_ is essentially the same, except the it could be picked up and carried and had a few keyvalues related to that.
Both of these had Goal# and GoalGroup# fields.

Now... nearly every entity that did anything (all the brush-based entities, relays, the respawn protection turrets, spawn points) had the following criteria/action keys on them:
Team allowed to use goal
Player class allowed to use goal
Has item #
Has item from group #
Hasn't item from group #
If item # has moved
If item # hasn't moved
If goal # active
If goal # inactive
If goal # removed (there were actually four states, active/inactive is different from removed/restored)
If group # actived
If group # inactive
If group # removed
If criteria fails activate #
If all goals in group # active...
...activate goal #
Activate goal #
Inactivate goal #
Remove goal #
Restore goal #
Activate group #
Inactivate group #
Remove group #
Restore group #
Item # to give
Item # to remove from AP (activating player)
Return item # if not carried
(There was actually a way larger (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v401/aboojumsnark/tfentkeys.jpg) amount of keys in the bunch, but they don't pertain to this, though they are nice.)

Probably around half of what this could do can be done by the I/O system, filter entities and logic entities now. But I think much of that was still more efficient with the goal system because every entity could do any gameplay function or criteria check by itself without having to forward the task to something else, and if you wanted a centralized entity for whatever reason, that was doable too.

The complexity was probably prohibitive to newbies, but it allowed for literally any type of map you could dream up. I am sure this contributed to the vast amount of maps that were made for the game over the years. I had a couple hundred maps on my system and that was a drop in the pond. The biggest factor of having that many is they weren't all 3-4 styles of gameplay.

Now to actually convert this into what I think is needed in TF2 while considering what can already be done in new Source methods...

Item numbering and reference criteria on (many many) entities. Home/away, carried/not, carried by the person triggering? Sure you can do some of this with the item outputs we have, but with any number of things needing reference it becomes cluttered.
Similar referencing for control point ownership. They already have index keys and groups, so those could be used.

I think most of the other stuff I could say this stuff (including the other keys from the picture) would allow for has already been covered in the list (1,2,3,second half of 5,6,7,10,12,14,sorta 15).

[TheBladeRoden]

I also want that particle editor we were promised with the release of TF2.

[Snipergen]

No stairs, no blender since that doesnt make sense. A better and user-friendly model compiler from valve itself would be better.

[MacNetron]

Although the differences between Blender and Hammer might be greater then I first thought (something with faces against brushes), I still find -after using Hammer now for a couple of months and finally getting a hang of how Hammer wants me to use it- Hammer an inefficient tool.

[trackhed]

i've been called that before too

[dirtyminuth]

Yes it is possible to have a single flag CTF. There's one hitch. The flag (briefcase) has no neutral skin, it's default colour is red.

This should be added to the list. Simple fix, should make single / neutral flag gameplay less confusing.

[Haas]

27. Higher entity limit
They would if it was possible see no reason why they wouldn't do this already and why the limit is active
43. Allow for ladders in the game.
They can but it is a game breaker so they won't
30. More textures with greater variety, especially indoor ones
They would if they had any but why would they release textures that are not in the game. (maybe they have some unused so you could ask for releasing unused textures but The changes are small.

34. Drop Hammer and look into using Blender instead
They will never simple because they have no controle over blender. Asking for more import features could help like import dxf files.
36. Consider bringing back Green and Yellow teams. 4fort for the win!
Yeah right... This is more something for the modding community.

[Haas]

hmm i got one to add filter out model textures in the texture browser!

[Brandished]

2 more suggestions for hammer, I haven't seen either of these features, but then again, I only just started using hammer a month or so ago...

- A circle / arrow which shows what direction doors are set to move in for the grid / 3D view, something similar to the output radius circle for ambient_generic entities, with a drag-able circle to increase the distance the door opens. For an example of what this would look like in hammer:
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2187/funcdoorrotatinglk5.gif (http://imageshack.us)


- A "line of sight" tool, a cross between the camera tool and the line that a point file creates, that places a line on the map with two drag-able end points that's visible in the 3D view. It would be useful for adjusting / removing sniper spots, finding out just how far around a corner players can see, and lining up brushes and decals to one another. As of now I've been making func_door's and dragging their origin around to do this, but it's sometimes hard to tell if the line is going through an object and the origin moves along with the door making it a bit troublesome.

Didn't think of it before, but, env_laser and info_target work well for this. So I guess this 2nd request isn't as important, although it can be difficult to drag the entities around when you're zoomed in the grid view.

[Pad See Ew]

43. Ladders do work in TF2, I've played on a map that has one!

[DrHaphazard]

Sorry for taking so darn long about it, been busy. I have edited the list in the OP if you want to check it out. I am including here the things I removed from the list with an explanation as to my reasoning. Again feel free to critique.

4. Fix the seemingly broken other CTF gamestyles
Not specific enough. If someone could provide good examples then will reinclude.

19. Scalable models
Not TF2 specifc although I wholeheartedly agree that this should be included. Also I suspect a solution to this is not as simple as one might think.

27. Higher entity limit
Again not TF2 specific, and like Haas points out, probably would be fixed if it could be.


29. Make func_nogrenades work?
Well I am not sure what this entity does, but I think it might not work because neither of the demoman's weapons are techincally grenades? If thats the case then it cant be fixed, and the damage filter that we are requesting might fix the problem. If you are perhaps asking for something similar to the no_build brush that keeps engis from building, I will agree that something like this for stickies might be useful.

TEXTURES
30. More textures with greater variety, especially indoor ones
31. A guide to how you stylize your textures
32. Metal floors/walls, and ground/floor surfaces. (we are tired of nothing but farms,mines,deserts,spytech settings in each and every map.)
I've decided this smacks too much of laziness on part of the mapping community. Like lots of these suggestions I agree with the idea, but think that valve might think we're too demanding. Asking for the release of any extra textures might be ok, but I doubt that would occur.

33. Add the ability to see the effects of the smoothing groups in Hammer.
Like so many of these suggestions this one is over my head, but it sounds to me like its non-TF2 specific.

34. Drop Hammer and look into using Blender instead
I've always thought this was a little over the top, and several people have said the same, so I am going to remove it. Sorry MacNectron!

36. Consider bringing back Green and Yellow teams. 4fort for the win!
This ones a wash. Green and Yellow teams were provided for in TFC, so that is the reason i considered asking for this. However, this is probably one of those laziness things, where if we really wanted it the modelling community could provide it. Like creating our own textures it would just take work.

38. A built in advanced vertex editor so that I wouldn't have to build cylinder curves 5X larger, than they need to be, and then shrink them down to size.
Not TF2 specific, again though like most of the general Hammer suggestions, i agree that it would be a nice inclusion.

39. I would like to see VVIS handle cylinders a bit better - visileafs for every face when the cylinder is only 4 units big is not necessary (yes, I know func_detail takes care of that).
Not TF2 specific, and yes anything like that should be a func_detail anyways.

40. Light preview should preview ALL light generating entities, not just spots and dynamics.
Not TF2 specific, and since the lighting preview was just added seems silly to criticize it.

42. Fixing that silly "can't build default cubemap" error when building cubemaps.
I don't believe this one is TF2 specific. If it is then yeah it should be included.

43. Allow for ladders in the game.
Personally I don't see why valve couldn't give us the option on this one. I think ladders are definetly useful. However, this seems like a battle I won't win so I am removing it. Also as Pad mentions above, there is a workaround for ladders although somewhat inelegant. It can be found in fpsbananas' prefab section for TF2.

[DrHaphazard]

I've been thinking about #36 actually, the adding of Yellow and Green, and I think it might be worthy of inclusion. We should specify though, that we are not looking really for the colored character models, that we can do ourselves. Instead we are looking for the ability to have Yellow and Green flags. As is we only have options for Red and Blue in the filters, the flags, the cap points etc. We should ask for the ability to create variables beyond that.

So say if 1 = red and 2 = blue in the variables, then we need the options for 3 and 4.

I dunno what do you think? I realize that 4fort games only have a limited appeal, but i think this request fits in nicely with the desire for more flexibility.

[zbandito]

I strongly suggest considering what is most likely to be implemented and what is most valuable for the mod/mapping community... e.g. requests for more textures can easily be fufilled by the community or the mapper themselves. Entity fixes or additions are much more valuable...

I agree. Our full list is ambitious (more textures? We don't need to request that!). We should focus on getting the most bang for our buck without turning off the devs with a huge, rambling list of requests.

The developers at Valve undoubtedly receive a lot of requests; let's try to ensure these are essential and not superfluous! Particularly, ensure the list is CONCISE. :)

[DrHaphazard]

Well what did ya think of the list provided bandito I'd say its fairly concise and ive cut out virtually everything that the community can do itself.

[Elvis666]

ENTITIES
25. Make func_rotating work

Actually func_rotating does still work, but only for lights (eg. point_spotlight, light_dynamic, ...). It's a bid sad though that it doesn't work for brushes anymore...
Maybe (I'm really not sure about this) func_rotating brushes create a ton of visleafs. Wich would result in very poor performance on medium to lower end systems...
I guess there isn't a way of testing that theory though...

[Immortal-D]

Wow. So much stuff has been added since last time. Though after your absence, I started on our letter. This is what I got so far; feel free to use or modify as needed.



Subject: A Request From The Mappers

Dear Valve (or whoever),

My name is Daniel, and I am writing you on behalf of the largest custom Team Fortress 2 community; the TF2Mappers at www.tf2maps.net We have all enjoyed creating new material for this amazing game. One of our members has been hard at work for several months doing an awsome remake of ctf_Rock2- (need link). We would like to ask that you consider a few updates to the editor, allowing us more freedom to create unique content. As the largest custom TF2 community, we have agreed on a few things that we would like to see, and feel would be extremely helpful to the all the mappers.

The single biggest item we would like to have is the ability to use multiple gametypes in a single map. At the moment, doing so is very difficult. For example; one player can carry infinite flags, there is no way to manipulate the hud, scoring is messed up when using cp's and flags at the same time. A fix to the specific filters such as by damage type, class, and flag possession, would go a long way. There are a number of other items that we would consider invaluable tools:

CTF-
1. Ability to modify the speed penalty of a flag carrier.
2. Option to set the flag return timer.

Scoring-
1. Greater variety of scoring systems. For example, points earned based on the amount of time a flag/cap is owned.
2. The game_score entity appears to be broken, and is unable to alter individual scores, only that of the team.

Models-
1. Scalable models.
2. The ability to directly import models to Hammer from programs like Blender, XSI, and Maya.

Textures-
1. A greater variety, specifically for indoor and urban environments.

Hammer Specific-
1. Fix the 'can't build default cube maps' error.
2. Ability to see smoothing groups in Hammer.

Game Rules-
1. Control of max spawn time, not just minimum. At the moment, this can only be done server side.
2. Limit and/or disable classes. This is also a server side option we would like to have for Hammer.

We know you guys are working very hard, and are grateful for everything you have given us. I know I speak for everyone in this community when I say we are all eagerly anticipating the new achievement packs, and Episode 3. Right now we just want a bit more flexibility when mapping for Team Fortress 2. Thank you for your time, and keep up the good work!

Sincerely, Daniel JE.

[DrHaphazard]

Very concise, which is probably for the best. I would, however, consider keeping this paragraph:

one player can carry infinite flags, there is no way to manipulate the hud, scoring is messed up when using cp's and flags at the same time. A fix to the specific filters such as by damage type, class, and flag possession, would go a long way. There are a number of other items that we would consider invaluable tools:

Both in the body of your letter and also in the list. In reading the letter the recipient might focus on the numbered list and only glance over the part in the body of the letter.

It does make the list longer, but i think for very short entries like:

6. Allow a way to filter player classes
7. Allow a way to filter weapon damage
8. filter_activator_name appears to be broken for TF
9. Allow a way to filter out flag carriers

...the length is donwplayed by the brevity of each entry.

[Lord Ned]

Sorting by game in model browser does work.
You have to click on the top bar, then hit down till you hit TF the second time.
Models-
1. Scalable models.
2. The ability to directly import models to Hammer from programs like Blender, XSI, and Maya.

1. prop_scaleable. Not supported in TF2. (Is supported in Ep2)
2. Doesn't work like that. They need a qc file so that you can make a host of options that make source models how they are.

2. Ability to see smoothing groups in Hammer.
Should be able to see it. Go Camera>3dSmooth


Also the ability to enable/disable the Hud markers for a control point.

[Corion]

22. Ability to create brushes/entities that the pyro can light on fireI would also like to see the ability to create other objects that certain classes and/or certain attacks can activate so players could create objective-type maps. This would also have to include appropriate input/output events and a way to alter score.

Examples:

the ability to place a "sap target" which would be sappable by spies the way engineer buildings are
the ability to create some object that could only be destroyed by the heavy's minigun (a large, thick metal cable? a series of suspension ropes? a corrugated sheet of metal that could have a door cut into it?)
the ability to create a switch or other device which could only be activated by a melee attack
the ability to create objects which could be "constructed", "repaired" or "dismantled" with the engineer's wrench
the ability to create an object which a sniper would have to shoot, again, possibly a thin cord or wire somewhere in the distance which could not be destroyed by a rocket

I would be interested in using these for RTCW: Enemy Territory style maps or UT Assault style maps, along with some fun "puzzle" singleplayer maps.

Also, one that I would like to see is a way to limit players from changing to certain classes within certain areas, or specified by the respawn zones.

The singleplayer maps could present the player with a series of obstacles they would have to overcome or bypass with certain predefined classes:
e.g. There's a wall that's too high to get over with a normal jump, and the classes demoman, soldier, and scout are restricted. What do you do? Build a sentry and use it as a platform. The wall is still too high to jump over, so what now? Build a teleporter exit on top of it, and voila! Challenge solved. After you pass each challenge you'd come to a new location which would give you a place to change your class, but would indicate with signs which particular classes are restricted.

It might even be possible to engineer a sort of 2-player co-op puzzle solving method:
e.g. The engineer would have to build the aforementioned teleporter solution for a friend who is a heavy so he can shoot his minigun at something. If the first player built the teleporter scheme and then switched to a heavy, all of his buildings would be destroyed.



EDIT: Some of these could be faked via:
6. Allow a way to filter player classesand23. Ability to create clip brushes that can block only certain projectiles.
#6 would allow you to KILL players who selected a certain class within a respawn zone that you wished to restrict for that area, and #23 would allow you to create a ton of clips around an object so that only a certain weapon could destroy it, but these are very messy solutions.

[Charlie =[RHIT]=]

43. Ladders do work in TF2, I've played on a map that has one!

You probably saw one using this method: http://www.fpsbanana.com/tuts/6086