[WIP] Contest map: cp_bloodstained

[YM]

CP_BLOODSTAINED
----------About the map----------
I've been working on this Dustbowl-esque map for around a week now, maybe a little longer, and I've been running it on the Colts Playground server(_a4 is in the rotation) and Its playing well. The very first test we ran was awefull, Blu totaly dominated the Red team and it was hugely unfair. but now I've evened things out a little and its produsing some quite fun games.
The map is divided into three stages, two Blu held control points in each. The Blu team get 35 seconds (I'm thinking of extending that a wee bit) to set up their defences before the Red team are unleashed on them. Once the Red team capture both control points in an area that round ends and they progress through the map, just like in Dustbowl

Play it here (its in rotation, ask an admin to queue it up next)
------81.19.219.104:27015------


----------So far----------
The first test was terribly biased and not fun.
Since then I've changed where various ammo packs are, modified layout slightly and made various distances different. I've also added a few extra routes to give the Red team an edge on the Blus.
The map on rotation is currently on it's 4th itteration which has all three stages almost finalised layout wise and cliff displacements pretty much done up till the last control point.

----------The idea----------
So its like Dustbowl you say?
And what I have to say back is, yeah, its like Dustbowl. The major difference is its Red attacking a Blu base not the other way around. With Dustbowl and Gravel Pit both being dominatly Red architecture and only Hydro as Blu I felt we needed some more Blu dominant maps.
"The Blu team have a secret research base in a long winding gorge and the Red team, don't like it, they don't like it one bit. So they act on it."

----------Pictures----------

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/8098/cpbloodstaineda40000yd9.jpg

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/7954/cpbloodstaineda40001ml0.jpg

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/5538/cpbloodstaineda40002rb0.jpg

[YM]

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/200/cpbloodstaineda40003zf8.jpg
First control point in the final round (looking from red side)


http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4817/cpbloodstaineda40004hw7.jpg
Second control point in second round (looking from red side)


http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/2012/cpbloodstaineda40005xe4.jpg
Second control point in first round (looking from blu side)


http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/5937/cpbloodstaineda40006bd6.jpg
First control point in first round (looking from red side)

[Logo]

Looks like you're getting somewhere with it.

My only question, and hopefully you know this from your playtesting, but from the layouts I see it seems like Stage 1 is going to be the hardest stage for the attackers where Stage 3 would be the easiest (based on alternate routes). Is that the case? What makes the more straightforward Stage 1 easier for the red team?

[YM]

It seems that at the moment stage 2 is hardest to cap. I'm working on a new layout that will make stage three harder, Its been increased in size since the current version under testing, Its pretty chaotic at the moment. Inittially I desigen the second cp at stage 3 to be the very first CP in round 1, I guess I will have to have a redesign if it stays easiest to cap.

[Snipergen]

I like it. I really really do. From the screenshots I see you thought out some really interesting placement of blocks obstacles and houses.


Btw what contest?

[YM]

This contest..... (http://tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=688) The official TF2 mappers contest.

(I know how much you hate orange maps... lol... so don't worry I'm simply using those blue textures as placeholders!)
Working on the skybox now (just roughing out some buildings)

[Snipergen]

Ahh right :) hehe.
And I know, lol, you wouldn't do ever an orange map, its just for playtesting ^^
Jeez I dunno if I can work on the contest since I have a crysis mapping contest to work on too :(

Altough... 30 april... I have 30 days. We'll see.

[DJive]

I vote Youme does a tutorial on how to make great looking displacements heh.

Ive put so many hours into trying to make rocks look like that.

[YM]

lal, My displacements are terriiiiiible lol. They are only power 2.
I'll see what I can knock up.

[Sean of the Dead]

<sarcasm> im sorry, but that is the worst map i have ever seen. its not anywhere near worthy to be in the contest. it is ugly, the textures are crap, and its totally unoriginal. </sarcasm>

[Scotland Tom]

Way to judge a map before any detail work has been done.

I think it's obvious that Youme has only done the most basic of work in order to test the flow of the map and the overall gameplay. Details and accurate texturing come later. The map may be a contest map, but Youme certainly hasn't submitted it as a final version.

From what I can see the layout looks pretty good and should lend itself to some fun gameplay. Nice work so far. I'm anxious to see how it develops.

[Sean of the Dead]

i was joking w/ him, since he hates every idea i have :P

[DJive]

Errmm edited out =)

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/funny-pictures-mc-hammer-cat.jpg

[TheBladeRoden]

I am wondering if the ground is going to see some z-axis action

[YM]

Yes yes, lots of Z-axis action going to happen, well, a little bit anyway. The second stage was suposed to be a concrete floor but i've only just realised I got the texture wrong. Oh well.

SOTD.... great comments, just great...

Djive, what did you say? go on, you can tell us

[Scotland Tom]

Sorry, SOTD. It's hard to read sarcasm in textual format sometimes. I really couldn't tell.

[Sean of the Dead]

Yes yes, lots of Z-axis action going to happen, well, a little bit anyway. The second stage was suposed to be a concrete floor but i've only just realised I got the texture wrong. Oh well.

SOTD.... great comments, just great...

Djive, what did you say? go on, you can tell us

no problem xD

[Narkissus]

Next time add /sarcasm at the end so people dont freak.:thumbup:

[Irksome]

It looks fantastic, and nonsense, your displacements are great.

Maybe a Youme tutorial on said displacements is in order, hmm? (Time permitting of course.)

:thumbup:

[Varadero_be]

Great job Youme!

*I love your blue building!* Jocking

Seriously, seems really well done, I can't wait to test it with all textures and details.

[YM]

Irksome, head over to the tutorials lab.....

I'm gunna get some stuff roughed out in the skybox before I start texturing much, as well as some gameplay tweaks (mainly the final cp)

[Colt Seavers]

Clearly I am biased, being Youme's No.1 fanboy :001_tt1:
However, I've had Bloodstained running on the server since he started it - now in the map rotation. I'd say cp_station was a good map - and it is. But Bloodstained has the potential to be Epic! We've had some amazing battles on it so far and feel the layout is playing pretty spot on now.....always room for some tweaks but yeh.

Go Youme! All power to you mate - you're a one man map mountain and I can't wait to see it fully textured !!!:thumbup:

Manlove,

Colt

[YM]

Updated map (http://filebeam.com/d16518b0532445522fff5c59d5433c0c) (if you want to download and test, note its still not 'finished' looking atall)

I've completely done up the final round so it should be much harder for red to cap and nicer for blu to defend. I've also changed a few problems from the last version.

[MacNetron]

Damn, I'm still working out in a 2048x2048 room all my CP's to do exactly what I want and here I see a map already in map rotation for playtesting... D:

<mac runs away, screaming for his mummy...>

[YM]

Hows this MacNetron? I've started adding some details and texturing to the first round:

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/1934/cpbloodstaineda50002ao9.jpg
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/7186/cpbloodstaineda50001yk0.jpg
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/3334/cpbloodstaineda50000bs9.jpg

I'd say that area is around 60% finished, thats only the first control point, there are 5 more :( But I've got plenty of time so its all good.

[Snipergen]

I love the white, looks like the best barn I've seen so far :)

[YM]

Thanks. Goodness only knows why red have build a barn right outside the fence of blu's top secret research facility

[Scotland Tom]

Because it's just a barn. Not an ultra-secret staging area for the Reds... DUH! ;)

[YM]

Oh right, of course....
I never was good at adding props to maps I find a few that I like and seem to add those, over and over, with barely any other props making an appearence.
What we need is for someone to put all oth e TF2 props into a map so we can see them all together rather than browsing through that horrible window.

[YM]

Just added an extra red-only route out of the barn spawn, due to popular demand. I'm not entirely convinced it will work, but if it does its no bother to leave in and if it doesn't its not exactly hard to cut it out again.

[MacNetron]

This is a newer look than the one on the colts-server. That is still a4. Looks great!
I like the gameplay, although it heavily depends on the team. This is a team map.
I've had a bad team that didn't succeed in capping point two (stage 2). When turned around, the other team capped completed the same stage in 3 minutes... *yikes*

Had I already said I like the map??
http://83.81.118.36/gfx/cp_bloodstained_a40000.jpg

[YM]

I guess that proves you've played it :)
The version on the server is the undetailed version, there are also a few layout tweaks between the one on the server and the one I'm working on.
It is a team map its quite frustrating when you have a ninja team and a lame team, as you say. It produces fun games when both teams are evenly matched though. There is nothing wrong with it being a team map, after all, this is Team Fortress 2

[YM]

Help! This map is now crashing our server and I have no idea why. I haven't updated the file at all, its the same as this (http://filebeam.com/d16518b0532445522fff5c59d5433c0c) one.
We've had this map in rotation for about a week with no problems, then all of a sudden since yesterday's update (I assume, It was working yesterday before the update and then not working today) it crashes the server the moment it is loaded.
All the other custom maps on the server work, so its just this map. Could it posibly be to do with the fact it has rounds?
ANY help would be awesome because untill I can fix this I'm screwed

[Snipergen]

Your map might be corrupt, try previous saves :/ I hope you didn't make lots of changes... I save every 10 mins really.
Also, and I know you will do this but,.. really check for leaks, even if the compiler doesn't say so :s

I hope you find it mate, would be a waste if this was bugged.

[YM]

No its the version that has been loaded on the public server, not the one I'm testing on my home server. It runs fine on my home PC, all versions do.
Just ran an older version, which crashes the server aswell.
It seems there is something in this map from the start that TF2 now doesn't like.

[Paria]

are you totally sure its just your map , the latest patch has introduced alot of server crashing , current workaround is setting mp_forcecamera to 2 or 3 in the server.cfg, valve are working on a fix for it too.

[YM]

and what does mp_forcecamera do? My first reaction is that it makes those viewpoint cameras that you use in spectate mode or when you die....

[Paria]

its a server variable to force your camera to different settings on death,

they added a new default value of 3 for tf2 - which allows spectators to spec everything, but for players in game on red/blu teams they can only spec their own team and via chase/3rd person views,

0,1,2 are all various different options of this, 1 used to be the preffered setting in tf2 (certainly i had it in my server.cfg) and this value is crashing servers left right and centre currently, if the amount of messages on hlds mailing list are anything to go by :)

if you are just running a listen server on your home pc it will default to 3.

[YM]

well we changed the server setting and I posted a map that has cameras in, just to be safe.
It worked :D
I think I'll have this map out of alpha and into beta within two weeks.

_a5 (http://filebeam.com/a8249ff843eeb1bd4273f06796e5ef1c) if anyone facies taking a look, if not its in the rotation of colts playground, IP: 81.19.219.104:27015
Aswell as the colts playground custom map server (just for customs!) IP: 84.45.84.166:27015 (not in the rotation, you'll have to get hold of an admin)

[Vander]

Very nice work. I like it alot. Where did you get the blue dev textures? Those look so much better than the damned orange. I've even gone so far as to use only yellow concrete as a "dev text" when roughing out a map. It would be great to have blue and red instead.

[Vander]

Well, dur! Never mind, I found em.

I know, I know, seek and ye shall find.

BTW, you care if I put your map on our clan server? We're always looking for good stuff to try out.

[YM]

Well, dur! Never mind, I found em.

I know, I know, seek and ye shall find.

BTW, you care if I put your map on our clan server? We're always looking for good stuff to try out.

lol classic

and in one week (roughly) It'l go beta and then everyone can have it on their servers :D

[Vander]

Nice! Looking forward to testing it out for you.

[Juice]

How did you get blue dev?

[Scotland Tom]

Youme is the creator of the blue and red dev textures. You can find them HERE (http://tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=55).

[YM]

Youme is the creator of the blue and red dev textures. You can find them HERE (http://tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=55).


^^

[ChickenHunter]

^^

i use them

[YM]

Hit beta testing - http://tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=1093

Please all download, comment, put on random servers... and most importantly critique! :D

[PMAvers]

Havn't got a chance to play-test it yet, but after a solo run-through it looks pretty good.

It'll take a little bit to convert the screenshots I took, but a few things I noticed:

-Lighting issues with control point "pads", CP signs, and the demoman's bottle. They seem to look almost solid-white.

-Broken texture on the ceiling of Red's spawn "waiting room" for the second level. It showed up for a second, flickered, and went straight black.

There's also still a bunch of the blue dev-textures, but I'm guessing those will be fixed in later versions.

I'll be uploading it to my server later in the day to see how it plays.

EDIT: Okay, here's the screenshots.
CP's:

http://bggaming.org/tf2/bloodstained01.jpg

Lighting here on these looks odd, due to the lack of a source for the light.

http://bggaming.org/tf2/bloodstained02.jpg

Broken ceiling texture:

[http://bggaming.org/tf2/bloodstained03.jpg

[YM]

Yeah I messed the cubemaps up somehow last minute, thats the first problem
Second is: there is no light source because pretty much all lighting is not finalised.
Third is a model texture I seem to have used by mistake.

Edit: map running 24/7 ( I think) on here - 84.45.84.166:27015

[PMAvers]

Oh, and before I forget, the "invisible wall" behind Red's first spawn. Any chance of getting some sort of barricade up there? It feels weird, it's one of those spaces where it *looks* like you can walk out there, but you can't. Throws you off. Maybe a short wall with a "land mines" warning on it, and a bunch of glowing red dots in the field?

[YM]

yeah I forgot about that, I'll add that in, it was already on my todo list

[MacNetron]

What can be more fun than "noclipping" with the author himself in the skybox?

http://83.81.118.36/gfx/cp_bloodstained_b10001.jpg

BTW: Good name for point 3 might be waterpump or drainage.
Hiding points for spies will come when you finish the map by adding stuff like barrels and tweak the lighting. It is a bit to open and light for them now.

[YM]

This is the last time thats happeing for sure :P
Glad you like it and I'll be sure to add spy hiding places and whatnot
(lighting is all temporary at the moment)

[Ace]

Played it today, very nice map :)

One annoying thing did happen to me though, there is a low wall by one of the control points, (I think it is the last one on the first stage).
I got stuck between it and the cliff wall, and had to kill myself, so maybe the wall needs to be slightly shorter or some player clips need to be added round it somehow.

[MacNetron]

This is why I made remarks about things being purple:

http://83.81.118.36/gfx/cp_bloodstained_b10002.jpg

and personal favorite:

http://83.81.118.36/gfx/cp_bloodstained_b10004.jpg

BUT, after finding out I appeared to be the only one, I closed TF2, restarted and rejoined and everything was fine again.
As usual, I had loads of fun with you guys on this map.

I think the purple-issue has something to do with alt-tabbing/minimizing and restoring tf2...

[YM]

well now you know where all the custom textures I've used are ;)

[WarMecha]

Is that a cubemap error or texture thing?

[Snipergen]

Dammit i still have to play your map youme, it looks fun.

[Vilepickle]

I noticed when users alt + tab that happens to custom textures and cubemaps... as well as the wireframe thing. Valve are pro coderz.

[Juice]

Me, flaming those baddies!
Also, getting punched in the face. :(

[Vander]

I have added your map to my clan's server (IP info in my sig). It is not in the main rotation as of yet. My plan is to switch to your map next time we have a good amount of players and see what the first impressions are.

I ran through it solo yesterday and was impressed with the overall design. A bit dark, but I assume that's because it's a beta. I especially like the pro Blu signs and whatnot.

I hope to have some feedback for you soon. Keep up the good work!

[PMAvers]

Finally got the chance to do some playtesting with actual players instead of a solo play-through.

A few random thoughts:
*The timers are very long. When you could end up defending the first stage for 15+ minutes... they could probably be cut in half.
*The third stage is very large. We had problems getting to the front line as defenders before the setup time would lapse, and that was going full-bore towards it.

[YM]

Finally got the chance to do some playtesting with actual players instead of a solo play-through.

A few random thoughts:
*The timers are very long. When you could end up defending the first stage for 15+ minutes... they could probably be cut in half.
*The third stage is very large. We had problems getting to the front line as defenders before the setup time would lapse, and that was going full-bore towards it.

The timers aren't that long, I might reduce them slightly but only by a minute or two max. The trouble is, the game is swayed heavily in favour of the better team, I've actually (for the first two rounds especially) made an incredibly balanced map, that is, if the better team is defending the attackers have to get a really lucky break. if the better team are attacking then the defenders really have to up their game if they want to survive.
The downside to this is that two evenly matched teams will dig in and end up in near stalemates, unfortunatly because its round based sudden death is out of the question :( (I like sudden death)

Its easy to get a sentery gun up and running before the attackers reach point 1 on the last round, if you don't build a teleport(which are important) or a dispencer (also knowing where ammo packs helps LOADS). I've increased the distance that the attackers have to run from their spawn to the gates that block them in startup, this will not affect the first rush but if the defenders can hold off the first wave (very possible, I've done it many times) then any defender who died in that rush has a better chance of getting to the front line to deal with the next wave of attackers (which are now hindered by the increased distance)
Basically, if you have more than one or two new players to the map then the defenders will quickly loose the first point but once all the players know exactly how to get there it should be a much better defence.

[Snipergen]

I've learned that most of the players dont think as a team, so you have to keep in mind, what if there aren't teleporters or engi's that put up sg's etc.

[Koei]

I've learned that most of the players dont think as a team, so you have to keep in mind, what if there aren't teleporters or engi's that put up sg's etc.

Well, then they lose the first point in seconds. Same goes for Dustbowl stage 1. Gravelpit A. So I don't really see the problem with it.

[YM]

Yeah people have learnt that there are things you have to do on dustbowl, people will learn that there are things you have to do on bloodstained

[MangyCarface]

Finally got the chance to do some playtesting with actual players instead of a solo play-through.

A few random thoughts:
*The timers are very long. When you could end up defending the first stage for 15+ minutes... they could probably be cut in half.
*The third stage is very large. We had problems getting to the front line as defenders before the setup time would lapse, and that was going full-bore towards it.

Remember the last point in Dustbowl frequently goes up to 20 mins... I think it should be fine,

[phatal]

Yeah I messed the cubemaps up somehow last minute, thats the first problem

You probably renamed the bsp after building cubemaps.

[YM]

I did that, but then I played last night and they were working for me! I don't know if they worked for anyone else, but its not really an issue now, its just because I forgot to change the file name from _a6 to _b1 before building cubemaps won't happen for future versions because they will all have the right name.

[DJive]

^^ Youme where did you go yesterday? Did a run through and you... ran away =p

[YM]

uh I think I said one round, which you then won, so I left ;)
Something to watch on telly probably - Its rare but it happens occasionally

[YM]

Downloads: A new file has been added by Youme:

CP_bloodstained_b2 (http://tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=200)

Second beta release.

Changes:-

-Vastly reduced file size
-Generally improved details everywhere
-fixed model textures and visible nodraws
-Adjusted timers slightly
-Increased distance between red sapwn in stage 3 and the start up gates to improve the quality of that stage.
-Adjusted capture point timers slightly
-Slight displacement tweaks, fixed missalignments in multiple places
-Improved lighting in a few places - note - most lighting is still very much unfinished
-Textured a few more areas

Updated to _b2

[DJive]

_b1 on the server still!! *gasp*

=p

Cant wait to try this one out =)

[YM]

_b1 on the server still!! *gasp*

lol, once the rotation goes round another rotate, or someone changes to _b2 manualy then it will only play _b2, just be patient! lol

Not much has actually changed, well, not a huge ammount, the change log is deceptive.

[YM]

Not much change...I left in a brush I used to seal the map, which completely broke the whole thing, I don't believe I didn't pick it up before i submitted it, I've removed the file for now to make sure no one downloads this pointless file, I'll get it re-compiled tomorrow and re uploaded. I've also removed it from our server rotation so don't worry, unless you've played it in the last hour or so you'll never have to play this broken version.

[flubber]

We just had a big map-test session on our server, with beta 1, people like it but no team took the second point on the first map, and i'm not talking poeple passing thru the server, it was 24 true player each team on a TS channel and it was quite impossible to win (maybe the defense spawn is too close from the point).
Still the map receive a 78% approuved vote, i'm waiting for the b2 to put it on the servers and give more feedback since it will be played several times each day.

[MacNetron]

Not much change...I left in a brush I used to seal the map, which completely broke the whole thing, I don't believe I didn't pick it up before i submitted it, I've removed the file for now to make sure no one downloads this pointless file, I'll get it re-compiled tomorrow and re uploaded. I've also removed it from our server rotation so don't worry, unless you've played it in the last hour or so you'll never have to play this broken version.
Yeah, we lost that round quite easily:
http://83.81.118.36/gfx/cp_bloodstained_b20001.jpg

We just had a big map-test session on our server, with beta 1, people like it but no team took the second point on the first map, and i'm not talking poeple passing thru the server, it was 24 true player each team on a TS channel and it was quite impossible to win (maybe the defense spawn is too close from the point).
Still the map receive a 78% approuved vote, i'm waiting for the b2 to put it on the servers and give more feedback since it will be played several times each day.
Then you had 2 good balanced teams. Yesterday I played it a couple of times and my team was unable to defend it 3 times. On the other hand, we didn't captured it. Other team used 3 medics to uber on almost the same time. I was the only medic on my team.

[YM]

Yeah, we lost that round quite easily:
At least you got to see round 3 then :P


I have actually adjusted the capture point times on all of the points, just to make things play slightly better, only time will tell ;)

[Colt Seavers]

i'd really encourage you all to hop on the Playground Teamplay server to see how this map can play ;) i guess its cos we've played it since the a1 release, but seriously (and my apologies for bias here) it's with the most popular customs on the server even in beta along with Vertigo, Castle3, Ignition and Turbine.

The second cap can be taken quite effectively if you really work as a team and time your ubers. One demo man is enough to take out all the sentries due to the area size, and a second can easily advance to the spawn point to hold off the next wave effectively till it's capped.

I appreciate a map shouldn't need 24 very familiar players to work though - so maybe the tweaks you've made will be just the job. Personally find the map difficult to fault - except that if it comes on at 11.45pm i know i'm in for a late night :lol:

[YM]

cp_bloodstained_b2_a (http://tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=203) It now works ;)

Changes for _b2_a - 15/03/08:-

-Reduced filesize again ( _b1 - 91mb uncompressed. _b2 - ~40mb. _b2_a - 30mb) - from the fast download site its only 9mb now
-Redesigned one area
-Tweaked water
-Replaced a few textures
-Removed nodraw brush blocking blu spawn in round 2
-Lit an area that wasn't before
-Minor tweaks all over the place
-Added areaportals to the third stage

[MangyCarface]

Finally got to play this with a full server... amazingly fun and the areas that are finished look awesome. Definitely on par with Valve stuff. The custom decals are great, too. Blue got into Red spawn during the first round one time, is this intentional? Red was getting destroyed so I guess we deserved it though.

[YM]

Blue got into Red spawn during the first round one time, is this intentional? Red was getting destroyed so I guess we deserved it though.

Did they actually get inside the building?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the red spawn is the red building, the area around that building is not part of their spawn

[Vilepickle]

Did they actually get inside the building?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the red spawn is the red building, the area around that building is not part of their spawn

If you have to say it again and again, you may want to rectify it by making it clearer in the map. The "fence" with spawn visualizers before the round says pretty clearly that this area is part of the spawn right now.

That said, I guess I can comment on this map now.

CP1a-b: CP1 is fine for a first stage. CP1b however, is very "spammy". There needs to be more space or another route that isn't a full route but allows some extra damage to be inflicted on the defense turtling in the corner. The side tunnel to the CP is easily locked down and it's hard to kill a demo or whatever on the other side.

CP2a-b: I like 2a, but 2b makes me want to gouge my eyes out. Each doorway can have a sentry in front of it and you can't move THROUGH the doorway to get the engineer humping the gun off of it. This combined with the defense freely able to come through the small doors and disrupt your sentry clearing plan makes it painful. Have a higher entrance or something so players can come in from above and not get lamb-basted by a gun EVERY time.

CP3a-b: 3a seems fine again, but 3b seems to suffer from... something. I like the higher entrance, but the direct LOS from spawns to enemies makes clearing some players out of here mostly useless. combined with the longer cap time, it just leads to pain.

General Timers: These seem excessively long. Why does the CP1 set start with like 10 minutes? Dustbowl has 4.5 minutes to start with and adds 4.5 with each point. It would seem like, if properly done, this could use the same timers (maybe add 30-60 sec?). If it's taking 10 minutes to cap, then it's probably not balanced right yet.

Overall I like it. Texture some of those hallways and stuff. And then I won't have Orange-x nightmares while thinking about good maps.

[Koei]

If you have to say it again and again, you may want to rectify it by making it clearer in the map. The "fence" with spawn visualizers before the round says pretty clearly that this area is part of the spawn right now.

That said, I guess I can comment on this map now.

CP1a-b: CP1 is fine for a first stage. CP1b however, is very "spammy". There needs to be more space or another route that isn't a full route but allows some extra damage to be inflicted on the defense turtling in the corner. The side tunnel to the CP is easily locked down and it's hard to kill a demo or whatever on the other side.

CP2a-b: I like 2a, but 2b makes me want to gouge my eyes out. Each doorway can have a sentry in front of it and you can't move THROUGH the doorway to get the engineer humping the gun off of it. This combined with the defense freely able to come through the small doors and disrupt your sentry clearing plan makes it painful. Have a higher entrance or something so players can come in from above and not get lamb-basted by a gun EVERY time.

CP3a-b: 3a seems fine again, but 3b seems to suffer from... something. I like the higher entrance, but the direct LOS from spawns to enemies makes clearing some players out of here mostly useless. combined with the longer cap time, it just leads to pain.

General Timers: These seem excessively long. Why does the CP1 set start with like 10 minutes? Dustbowl has 4.5 minutes to start with and adds 4.5 with each point. It would seem like, if properly done, this could use the same timers (maybe add 30-60 sec?). If it's taking 10 minutes to cap, then it's probably not balanced right yet.

Overall I like it. Texture some of those hallways and stuff. And then I won't have Orange-x nightmares while thinking about good maps.

CP1B: disagree. Major disadvantage for the defenders right there. There are almost no decent sentry positions. 1-2 ubers take that cap in seconds. I do agree it's spammy. But it's not hard to cap.

CP3B is hard to cap. Also the defending snipers seem to been sitting in their spawn? Or am I wrong about that? I don't really know the exact position of the spawnpoints. Maybe we should have let you guys win CP2 ;).

In response to the general timers: it needs some tweaking. But don't forget the timelimits on dustbowl end up at 10-20 minutes sometimes! Esp. stage 3.

[YM]

The timers on dustbowl stack up, so if you cap stages 1 and 2 ultra lightning fast you have rediculous amounts of time for the last stage, I decided not to do this but I'm willing to experiment with it.

It seems the final points in each round need tweaking the most, I'm looking into ways off adding alternate routes, cover and spaces for each, any specific suggestions are welcome of course.

I've got a tricky job on this because I'm getting a lot of people saying is just perfect, and a lot of people saying its got some major improvements needed

[Scotland Tom]

Not everybody is always right. Some people can play a map, have fun, and say it's perfect while overlooking many drawbacks. Some people can have loads of criticism that may be based on the fact that they've played with a poor team or simply aren't the best players in the world. The opinions you can really trust are the ones that come from people with a reputation you can respect. Vilepickle has released some pretty solid maps in the past, so what he says may have more value than a new player on your test server.

[Vilepickle]

I thought about it some more today at school. What was really striking me on the offense side was that most routes are on the ground level, which leads to some pretty linear stuff. There is of course buildings that you can get on as soldiers and whatnot, but there's not really any true high-ground route except on 3B, which turns out to be stale-matey in the way it was implemented.

If you look at Dustbowl, they've got a high route on stage 1 into the B point, routes that go through an upper area on 2B, and an upper path on 3B. I think that might be contributing to the second points being really spammy/locked down.


I also realize some of this may sound like I'm preaching what I haven't practiced (ala Castle), but I made that map with a LOT less knowledge than I have now back in October. I think if I made that now, it would be a lot better. So I can at least help you make a good map :P

I had a hunch you were using set timers instead of additive. I didn't really pay attention to it though. Additive are harder to balance, but I think they are worth it in the end. They help the defense if they're doing good on one area and then get capped right at the end. That time deficit transfers to the next round and makes the offense more aware that they have less time/are more likely to lose unless they step it up. Static timers are ... meh. Very predictable and doesn't reward the defense if they did well on the last area.

[Shmitz]

That bottom tunnel in the first stage becomes useless after the first point is capped. You might consider extending it as a sublevel or adding a second upper level to the building it comes out in. That would give the attacking team some additional options for the second point that would be something other than ground level.

[Koei]

Not everybody is always right. Some people can play a map, have fun, and say it's perfect while overlooking many drawbacks. Some people can have loads of criticism that may be based on the fact that they've played with a poor team or simply aren't the best players in the world. The opinions you can really trust are the ones that come from people with a reputation you can respect. Vilepickle has released some pretty solid maps in the past, so what he says may have more value than a new player on your test server.
Hoho, "new" player isn't an argument. You have to look at experience.
And I was the top player on _all_ the maps we played. I'm nearing 22.000 kills on my homeserver with a KDR ratio of 3.33. I think I'm more than capable of spotting gameplay issues on maps.


What I would like to see on bloodstained:
- More high ground
- Some larger area's to fight in (think Dustbowl stage 2), so scouts got space to manouver. Most of the combat went on in fairly confined spaces/hallways or larger rooms that were 100% occupied by defense so you were still stuck in a confined space.

That bottom tunnel in the first stage becomes useless after the first point is capped. You might consider extending it as a sublevel or adding a second upper level to the building it comes out in. That would give the attacking team some additional options for the second point that would be something other than ground level.

Then he should give the defenders additional options to defend the 2nd cap, because at the moment it is quite easy to cap (lack of good sentry positions, now 1 ubered demo can take em all out).

[phatal]

I was glad to finally get to play this without the multitude of blue/red textures. Looks so much different.

I really liked the layout. However, the size is really small. I believe we had a 8vs8 and it was a tough fight to get the last cp's I can't imagine having more than 16 players playing this at once. I think enlarging it a bit would be good.

One nit picky thing I noticed... why is that large cargo container stuck inside the building? That looked really weird to me. :D

[Scotland Tom]

@Koei, I wasn't using "new" in that sense. I was using "new" referring to someone whom Youme doesn't know as well. You have to pick and choose which input to listen to. That "new" player may be the greatest player in the world, but without a frame of reference it's safer to listen to the input you get from sources you know to be reliable and knowledgeable.

On the issue of travel routes to the second caps, it's always a good idea to have some kind of height difference somewhere. Different classes can make better (or worse) use of their abilities from higher vantage points. One of the keys to a great map is giving every class (or nearly every class) something to do no matter what stage of the map they are in. That requires some different height elements. The less varied the exits are to the cap points the easier they are to defend.

[VelvetFistIronGlove]

A few possible issues I found during the last game night: pics and descriptions on http://www.flickr.com/photos/24803829@N02/tags/cpbloodstainedb2a/

[YM]

Fist - whoa suspected that that might be a little bit of a problem but I thought it wouldnt, guess i'll have to add some more playerclips
second - well the original intention was to allow players up here, but actually I'm considering clipping it off
Third - originally this section of the building was much shorter, there was even room to jump, but then I saw the door coming through the roof. doh! so I raised the ceiling and didnt even think about the clipping thanks
Fourth - again I intended remomen and soldiers to be able to use this, I didn't expect engineers to be able to get up there aswell, I think I'll put a little nobuild on the top of those barrels (thats how you got up there right?)
Thanks :D I think the main thing I'm working on now is the illusion of size, to make the map look bigger whilst not actually changing the dimentions [much]

[Scotland Tom]

Obviously you don't want those engineers to get up there, but one thing I think is cool is the engineer's ability to build himself up to where he might not normally able to get to. If you don't want to incorporate the idea in this map it'd at least be good to consider for the future. It's a good way to reward a good engineer and his team - to give him spots like that to build up to. (Provided it's a challenge to get there.)

[VelvetFistIronGlove]

Fourth - again I intended remomen and soldiers to be able to use this, I didn't expect engineers to be able to get up there aswell, I think I'll put a little nobuild on the top of those barrels (thats how you got up there right?)
That's how I got up, yes.

[Koei]

This is some feedback I got:
Stage 2 is a bit claustrophobic. Would like to see a bit more open space and not only small hallways leading up to 1 big room. And I kinda agree with that.

[Cereal_Killer]

Having finally played it (on the Colt Server WOOH HOO!), i can finally pass judgement. Now im pretty much a n00b so you can disregard my oppinion but just in case other people agree i thought id vent. The gameplay is very much the opposite of how valve's maps act. While valve's maps feels very open and complex at the same time. You're map feels very cramped but simple to follow. Maybe this was your objective. It does feel very complicated on the 3rd stage but uncomfortably. One of the problems i found on the 3rd stage was snipers shooting from behind the visualizer (preventing spies, demos, and anyone they are able to run away from from killing them) I did find your map to be pretty Heavy Weapons Guy friendly. Idk if this was on purpose or not. I did like the fact that it was very spy friendly as well. Over all i did enjoy playing the map despite the fact that it got a little stale when people didn't work together (what can i say im a sore loser). This was probably due to the few choke points (bonus points for you) that only existed right on the point, which forced teams to really work together to either take or defend the point <=== loved that. Only thing i'd try to reiterate is the easy spawn camping that can occur. Thanks for your contribution to TF2 and keep up the good work.

Thanks,
Cereal Killer

[YM]

This shot - here (http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/636/cpbloodstainedb3fullbritj9.jpg) - shows that I do listen to what you guys have to say (DJ, this is one of your suggestions) and yeah, I had mat_fullbright set to 2 ;)

[Memento Mori]

On small games on Area2-Capture2 a demoman can stickybomb the defenders spawn, walling you in. On larger games the map felt very small.

Good map though.

[YM]

On small games on Area2-Capture2 a demoman can stickybomb the defenders spawn, walling you in.

If thay can get into that position then they have practically captured your last control point, you should have played harder :P

[YM]

UPDATED

Changes for _b3 - 04/03/08:-

-Added extra raised area in the third round to aid defence of the first point
-Replaced all developer textures with proper ones.
-Slight timing tweaks
-Fixed yet more displacement missalignes
-Adjusted the lightmap scales all over the place for optimisation and looks
-Clipped off several areas
-Added a nobuild brush to prevent smart ass engies being too good
-Added a clip brush to aid engies
-Added details in lots of places, lighting, textural and brushwork details
-Added soundscapes
-Misc and improvements all over

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/833/cpbloodstainedb30007qi9.th.jpg (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cpbloodstainedb30007qi9.jpg)http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/6019/cpbloodstainedb30006at5.th.jpg (http://img229.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cpbloodstainedb30006at5.jpg)http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/5578/cpbloodstainedb30005vu6.th.jpg (http://img229.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cpbloodstainedb30005vu6.jpg)
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/9156/cpbloodstainedb30004wg1.th.jpg (http://img229.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cpbloodstainedb30004wg1.jpg)http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/4804/cpbloodstainedb30003zw4.th.jpg (http://img229.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cpbloodstainedb30003zw4.jpg)http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/3421/cpbloodstainedb30002fx4.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cpbloodstainedb30002fx4.jpg)

Download (http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=260)

[YM]

Just finished something that will appear in B4, which will probably be the last beta version before final btw (contest ends in less than a month now)
What the problem was: On winning the final round, the attacking team would recieve two points, so if the attackers won, then as defenders they won again they would have won two rounds but have 3 points, thus ending the match. However this means that sometimes the game would be finished prematurely (did anyone else even notice this? its been bugging me since I realised about a month ago)
Well I fixed it now, took a complete rebuild of the game entity system and control points but it should work now.

There isa barrel near the first point in round 1 (opposite some ammo near a door), has anyone ever tried to put a sentery there? Do you think its a good place? Have you managed it since _b3 now that it is poisible (just)

Also there are three barrels next to a wall at the second CP in round 2, does anyone have any major complaints about not being able to build on top of this now?

First capture point, final round, still capping too quick? Even with that raised area for another hidden SG?

Has anyone ever sucessfully defended CP 1 in round 2? I'm not sure I have, I've seen some pretty powerfull defences but I dont think I've ever seen any team defend it untill the time runs out.

Any other problems/good things/suggestions/comments/bugs/stories of epic battles/elephants?

[TheDarkerSideofYourShadow]

We never made it to the final round today. Successfully defended the 2nd round and then changed to the next map after a team swap and winning the first round.

Just a couple of things:

Round 1
Your attacking message is too long to fit in the box :-/

Round 2
The water in the sewer area isn't high enough to put out pyro fire, which made me sad a couple of times.

It was pretty easy as a defender to camp the spawn. I racked up quite a few kills with just myself and a medic standing outside of the doors.

No one ever made it past the final capture of round 2, and all we had defending was 1 engy. The way the everything is positioned, that engy can cover all entrances except for one coming out of the back of the house. This engy just had his SG to the left of the stairs (while looking towards where the attackers are coming from). That was actually voiced a couple of times (saddly, alltalk was not on). Or, you could have 3 pyros block every door, heh.

[VelvetFistIronGlove]

The cap point in this pic (http://img229.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cpbloodstainedb30003zw4.jpg) is a little too high -- I came round the back of the building up alongside the point (as a defending medic), and was trying to get onto it. I couldn't walk onto it, and somehow I got stuck between the displacements and the end of the little brick wall.

[YM]

you mean the platform is just too high to walk on from the displacement without jumping?
if thats what you mean, thanks, I'll address that now, if not, please clarify
:)

[Rotab]

No typing.

[YM]

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/8349/riker1rd8.jpg

None of you guys get it do you.

Thread is for discussion.

Gameday is for playing the game.

Two separate things that should be kept separate.

Do any of you honestly thing you can be playing the map to its full potential whilst half of one team are avidly discussing some tunnel....... its just a tunnel, now get over it and capture the bloody points like you're supposed to be doing!

[Rotab]

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/8349/riker1rd8.jpg

None of you guys get it do you.

Thread is for discussion.

Gameday is for playing the game.

Two separate things that should be kept separate.

Do any of you honestly thing you can be playing the map to its full potential whilst half of one team are avidly discussing some tunnel....... its just a tunnel, now get over it and capture the bloody points like you're supposed to be doing!

You were just an asshole.

[YM]

I missed the part where you justified your arguement. So wanting some quality testing out of a testing event makes you an asshole?

What a great introduction to the forum you've had, pissing off a prominant member

In future: don't quote the post before yours... its only a few pixels above your post anyway, if we want to see what you are talking about we can just scroll up. Only quote if you are referencing a specific part of a previous message or the post you are referencing is several posts behind your own.

[Rotab]

I missed the part where you justified your arguement. So wanting some quality testing out of a testing event makes you an asshole?

What a great introduction to the forum you've had, pissing off a prominant member

In future: don't quote the post before yours... its only a few pixels above your post anyway, if we want to see what you are talking about we can just scroll up. Only quote if you are referencing a specific part of a previous message or the post you are referencing is several posts behind your own.

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/8349/riker1rd8.jpg

[sunoxen]

Where can I grab Beta 4? We'd like to test it out on our server.

[DJive]

Oye, both you two need to chill out. Silly to get so worked up over a forum =)

[Snipergen]

Youme, the tunnel really needs to be 2 ways, if they build a sentry there there is nothing to do about it and it's quite lame :p
I really like that stage of the map, the 2nd stage is really hard because you bump alot in other people and the first point is capped too fast and the 2nd one almost never. That's how I see it and I think I played the map enough to mean this :D

[Bonafide]

its a great lookin map but imho the first cap is too easy where as the second cap is too hard. Just my opinion.

[YM]

Where can I grab Beta 4? We'd like to test it out on our server.

You can't.

_b4_a was a closed test that only went out to colts playground servers so you have to actually play the map on one of those to get it. If you do, please don't put it on your server, the final release will be out in just a few days (IE before wednesday)

[YM]

Final version is released.

FPSBanana link (http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/53113) - so you can go rate it fairly

Download link (http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=347) - Including screenshots

I guess this thread is now obsolete. being a WIP thread an all....

[Snipergen]

Well youme, grats for finishing this beauty.