Wip: Ctf - Spacebase

[meatpopsicle]

Greetings friends and fellow mappers.

I have started (a couple of weeks ago) a CTF map for TF2 with the working title of SPACEBASE.

I -DID-have a development blog on my website that features screenshots and ongoing discussion about the level. However due to problems with my web software I have stopped updating it and am posting occasional updates here in this post.

http://www.studio-erebus.com/spacebase/

Leave feedback here in this thread and I will respond if necessary.
Also I will post any testing announcements and beta availability here as well.

UPDATE:

I have continued updating my blog, and will be occaisonally featuring a screenshot here for your pleasure:

http://www.studio-erebus.com/spacebase/Site/main/screenshots/spacebase-1-2008.jpg

Older images:
http://www.studio-erebus.com/spacebase/Site/main/screenshots/space-hangar37b0001.jpg

peace

meatpopsicle

[drpepper]

sounds like an interesting idea. not sure where you're going to find some space-craft style textures, but good luck anyway, should be interesting.

[meatpopsicle]

Actually I am an accomplished 3d artist and texture artist. I will be making the textures myself ;-)

peace

[spaceweasels]

Looks pretty cool. I had thought about making a map based on a spaceship, where you have to control different parts of the ship. Looks like you had me beat.

[killanator]

im looking forward to playing this! it looks really good!

[ThatGuy]

nice! looks like a cool map which will be fun, it would be awesome if a team can get rewarded for capping the intel by making the other side die by an door opening and sucking them out or something.

[Octopus]

Yea, I have also toyed with this idea. A few questions:
-Is it a spacestation/ lunarbase/ spaceship etc.?
-Why would two sides be in the same spaceship?(base)
But then most of tf2 maps are like that. That is the biggest dilema when I have thought about making maps like this.
-Is is going to all be inside?
-Low grav?
--Certain areas with low grav/ button that makes it low gravity?

This is a very intresting idea. I like it. Could I use some of thoose textures If I decide to make a map?

[Scoobingsthe2nd]

Looks good. It kind of seems a little dark though. Careful of that, a lot of custom maps fall into that trap.

[meatpopsicle]

Yea, I have also toyed with this idea. A few questions:
-Is it a spacestation/ lunarbase/ spaceship etc.?
-Why would two sides be in the same spaceship?(base)
But then most of tf2 maps are like that. That is the biggest dilema when I have thought about making maps like this.
-Is is going to all be inside?
-Low grav?
--Certain areas with low grav/ button that makes it low gravity?

This is a very intresting idea. I like it. Could I use some of thoose textures If I decide to make a map?


Hey Octopus,

1) Well it could be any of those. I suppose I'm leaving that to the players imagination - unless during the design I have a reason to specify it.

2) This is a great question. Certainly valve CTF maps dont give you any reason to know why theres two places so simliar across from each other but I feel like its important. I decided on one side of the mid-ground is the "engineering" room where their Int. is. On the other sid eis the "bridge" where that teams Int. is. So I'll be trying to make each Intelligence room like like those respectively.

3) So far - yes all inside with the main center ground having a huge hangar door that opens into space. Any windows or skylights will show off a star skybox that I have made to make you feel like your in space.

4) I will have to test gravity for gameplay. However so far all my rocket jumps and scout jumps are based off standard TF2 gravity -- Im thinking probably 'no' with the excuse that the base has a gravity system.

5)I will release the textures for public non-profit use when my map is released at the same time. (final version - not betas)

thanks for the great questions!

[meatpopsicle]

Looks good. It kind of seems a little dark though. Careful of that, a lot of custom maps fall into that trap.

Yes absolutely and good point - I have only placed a very few lights to keep compile times down (when I even do RAD) which is only for screenshots and to make sure that textures and such will be looking approximately right under the correct circumstances -- so currently the map is underlit by 50-70%. Good observation.

[Octopus]

I was looking at the Hanger update, and it looks really good. However, for me, when I think of a Sci-fi hanger, it seems that the ceiling would be higher. How could a spaceship land in that?
Also, where did the spaceship go?
Anyways, It looks pretty cool.

[meatpopsicle]

Hmmmm...

Well ; the hangar door as is --- is about 1024 units high. Thats about 4 stories tall.

The hangar is meant to hold a shuttle or troop transport... havent made up my mind.

There is certainly room to make it bigger; I think once I have the real ship in there I will know how much bigger it might need to be (if at all).

Well see how it goes :) Thanks for touching base with your feedback - always welcome.

[meatpopsicle]

updated screenshot and blog FYI

[Intraman]

The screen shot looks pretty good. The textures could use some better lining up though.

[vartaxe]

i would prefer tf2 cartoon concrete textures...

[Buster Charlie]

I hope that with the amount of 1960's space movies you can at least try to mimic the retro painted feel of the TF2 textures. If it's just gonna be another 'put as much grain and noise into it as possible' custom texture job I think i'll pass.

You should be aiming at moonraker, Austin powers, etc.

[Intraman]

Yes, the textures (although are wonderfully done) could use a nice 50's/60's sci-fi look to them.

[meatpopsicle]

Hello guys,

Yeah I know what you all mean when you refer to texturing in a feel that looks more like the TF2 tetures.

Some of the elements I know I'm able to come into the right ballpark. Color choices and saturation levels are something I can imitate but actual _style_ has been a huge problem for me to come close to. I've basically settled for understanding that I have my own style and its not the TF2 style. Since my map will have its own architecture and texturing and a few of my own props in addition to TF2 props .. I'm hoping it stands on its own.

As with any artistic project though .. I may fail!

thanks for the great feedback

meat

[oxy]

Hey meat, it looks good. I would be into playtesting your next closed session and giving you some detailed feedback.

oxy

[meatpopsicle]

Hey Guys,

Oxy: that would be great and I will probably need that soon hopefully.

Overall Status: First I've been pretty sick for 2 weeks. I've done some work on the map but not as fast progress as I had been having before.

Secondly the program I use to update my web blog - I upgraded to the new version and it totally broke my templates so I have not been able to update my site. I have to rewrite some of the CSS code --- which I was never good at to begin with !! So .. I don't really know what to do about that .. spending time on that is less time on my map basically.

Ill try to post updates in here for now if I can :)

meat

[jakeparlay]

seems like a novel idea and a promising concept ! good stuff

[oxy]

Hey I might be able to help with your blog/site. email me "oxygencube at hotmail.com"

[meatpopsicle]

oxy: are you famliar with iWeb templates? If not then you'd probably not be able to assist despite knowledge with CSS and such.

meat

[ryodoan]

The map is looking pretty cool, I like it.

[meatpopsicle]

hello,

2 new screenshots of the blue base.

its not done but feedback is always welcome

http://www.studio-erebus.com/spacebase/Site/main/screenshots/spacebase-1-2008.jpg

http://www.studio-erebus.com/spacebase/Site/main/screenshots/spacebase-2-2008.jpg

meat

[Buddikaman]

Looks good man. The only thing that really sticks out to me is your tilable textures. Im not sure how many of those square cuts you have in your texture map, im guessing one. But due to that big splash in the middle it really makes it look repetative. I say either go back and try to make the square less distinct, or better yet, add more squares in your texture map all detailed seperatly, and just make it bigger in hammer so you can atleast offset it.

-Buddikaman-

[Intraman]

I really like the platform and ceiling textures. Hell, all of them are looking real good.
To make the wall alittle less repeative you should add a decal or something there.

[l3eeron]

Looks like it might be a bit tight in there, a little elbow room is good in TF2.... I found out that visually things look great, but suck in game play.


Kudos to you for making some custom textures.

[drpepper]

this map is made of epic win. good job, keep it up!

[meatpopsicle]

Looks good man. The only thing that really sticks out to me is your tilable textures. Im not sure how many of those square cuts you have in your texture map, im guessing one. But due to that big splash in the middle it really makes it look repetative. I say either go back and try to make the square less distinct, or better yet, add more squares in your texture map all detailed seperatly, and just make it bigger in hammer so you can atleast offset it.

-Buddikaman-

Good suggestion. It was a big texture and I had it at .25 so I increased it to .5 and adjusted that splash of darker color to be less apparent and it looks much better.

meat

[Squirrelly]

u stole my idea! haha

i had that exact same name too "spacebase" but i never got to starting it, so go for it!

yea its going to be hard to find a good variety of space worthy looking textures, it gives u a good chance to make your own though!

the name of the map will make it popular to peoples eyes at first, and if the map comes out good... it should be a hit!

[meatpopsicle]

So yeah.

Between classes deflecting a lot of my time ( they are done finally)
and this level taking longer than I thought due to the fact its taken me literally 2 months of work to figure out how to get my spaceship into the level and there was no way I was going to release before that was in ...

I'm finally coming around to see the light here on SPACEBASE.

I know; you gave up on me! I would have too honestly.

So heres a nice image to show you a WIP on my spaceship; its texture is temporary, and in fact the model has some re-working done since this shot was taken. But I still think it looks OK or you wouldn't be looking at it :)

http://www.studio-erebus.com/spacebase/Site/main/screenshots/spacebase-3-2008.jpg

Now that you've got that to gander at I wanted to thow out some questions for anyone stumbling through.

1) How many health power ups and ammo packs do you distribute in your levels? I'm generally trying to match Valve's 2 fort distribution but I find it difficult to know if that will work for my map since I have not multi-player tested it. What do you do before you get to play to decide what to do?

2) Currently optimizing. I've found a decent set of brushes that *IF* I had made differently I could have func-detailed and saved some visleafs. Maybe .. a lot hard to say. Should I go back and fix every wall that has this issue? Or let sleeping dogs lie in interest of a release sooner? My current system maxes almost the whole level out at 300fps so I dont know how to judge its performance too well :( (Sorry not trying to brag just updated computer to run Age of Conan and its running well)

3) What is a good "final size" bsp to expect people to download it? Any rough ideas? Ever make a bps that was to big and people complained? How big was it? Keep in mind I have custom textures and models.

4)I'm sort of afraid to release a test-alpha or beta due to the amount of original content? Should I be worried? When is it the right time to do a test release?

5) Also I'm putting in a lot of those final 'details' right now, extra props and nooks & cranny things; I want the level to feel a little sparse; because its a space station not a public building downtown on earth right? Any opinions on what could be seen as "too sparse" and make people feel its under detailed? Any rule of thumb you use?

thanks for any feedback,

peace

meat

[Sgt Frag]

'bout the screeny:
I think the ship looks pretty cool. I don't think the tex fits in TF2 very well but the overall shape/style of the ship does. Seems like it needs some lift-off/set-down boosters on it though, how else would it land like that?
The terrain looks cool but I think you need some trim around doors/windows. That's a common mistake on alot of maps, heck even one of my most recent releases for another game that I was 'speed building' suffered the same issue. I told my testers I was doing a speed build and didn't really care. Well, they basically MADE me add trim... Guess I'm glad I just took the time, it does help alot (it really wouldn't have saved me all that much time NOT doing it anyway).
Especially that long oval window, with the sharp line runnning down it off center looks bad, a trim would completely change that.

It's true that alot of custom maps have weird '2 teams in one base issue', but I don't think you can say that about Valve maps. Sure it might be a little strange that red built a base straight across from blu, but that's gameplay mechanics. Obviously 2Fort wouldn't be the same if there was large expanses of desert or a town in between the bases...
But I still think there are viable ways to explain why blu and red are in the same space station. A couple ideas I have:
1:Blu could be Red's prisoners... They are kept at the far side of base from their ship, the last cap point IS the ship so they can escape.
2:You could have an airlock on one side, Blu's ship is on other side of airlock (maybe that's the spawn room) and they are breaking in to steal red's lo-tech ship...whatever.


As for your Q's:
1:Really depends on level and gameplay. You don't want to overpower either team. Enough health for smart players to live... See point 4

2:You want your level as optimized as possible. If you can save vis-leafs by using func_details do it. You might have a really fast computer but alot of people dont. ALWAYS try and build for a games lowest system specs. That's hard if you don't have a low-end machine to test, that's why you need to optimize everything as good as possible.

3:haven't got that far yet...

4:First, at some point you have to release. Always better to release a beta before you call it final. Try to find someone to host games. This will help you figure out critical things to fix before Final. How much health. Any bad points in map that need fixed. How it runs multi-player AND on other peoples machines...
Your content will eventually be released so there's only so much you can do to 'protect it'. But you HAVE to test. Most likely no one else will build and release a map with your stuff before you IF you are as close as you think.
You could always make some very basic cheap models as placeholders for texting. Stuff that no one would wnat to use but that conforms close enough to your current stuff so it wouldn't effect gameplay.

5:You need details for sure. Remeber, even space stations have people living there. They need stuff...
Think realistically about the areas. Obviously there isn't alot of need for trainwheels or truck tires. But they would have chairs, tables, coffee pot.
But areas like the hanger would probably have minimal items around. They open the door and the crate of rockets floats away... Although heavy metal containers would probably be fine.

6:shut-up and quit ranting old guy...oh, was that out loud?

[meatpopsicle]

hey sgt,

thanks for the detailed reply!

the window trim is something I am going to be adding soon. in fact I plan on making a prop to make the round ones look a bit more like "port holes" on a ship .. not quite but kind of that feel you know?

for the long one I am sort of going to have to brainstorm on that window i might either frame it with half circles or do some other trim - but your spot on -- that is an area that I intend to spruce up.


Otherwise another response I wanted to make was about the "idea' of the game play. See I'm going to release all the textures and models as an SDK so other people can work with my stuff later ... I really imagine a nice CP map being done where you have to "invade" someone elses ship with this art that I'm making. Almost a star wars rebel is invading princess lea's ship scene (if you've seen the original star wars anyways)

the "idea" for this map is the "engineers" vs the "officers" who are on the "bridge" kind of an after hour game they play. i plan to make a few decals/posters that talk up that idea and "post" them in the "break room" in the officers area and the coolant management room for the engineers.

thanks again!

meat

[Géza!]

Whoa, you got a very good looking map!

Only thing I would add to the artstyle is more team-coloured stuff. Now it looks too uniform.
(Reminds me a bit of Portal...)

[Sgt Frag]

Something that occoured to me after I posted...

About those round windows and func_details. I suppose those windows have triangles inside squares to make them round. Make all the triangles one func_detail so all the world spawn is only square holes (hide the func_details and see only squares).
Now you can add area_portals in all the squares to seal that area and block views into and out of the ship area. Good way to optimize that area cleanly.
Of course you may have done that, hard to tell from screens. But I did say to make the trim func_details, just wanted to clear up that the trim AND corner fills should be func_details.

[meatpopsicle]

hey sgt,

my current undertanding is i cant use area portals in that fashion for this room because there are 9 openings to this room including one on the floor.

all the documentation i read seemed to say you can only have 2 areaportals and they have to "seal" an area

its possible the documentation is misleading though, whats your thoughts?

ps I made 2 screen shot pages to share today:
http://www.studio-erebus.com/spacebase/Site/main/screenshots/space-redshot1.jpg
http://www.studio-erebus.com/spacebase/Site/main/screenshots/space-blueshot1.jpg

[Sgt Frag]

You should post a link to that docu so I can read it. It is deffinately wrong and misleading.

For instance my saloon currently has 3 working area portals. 2 doors and a window. And they work exactly as they should.
--------
Just to be clear I just mean use 'ALWAYS OPEN' area portals. So set their initial state to open and that's all you gotta do. That's the best way for multi-player games so they work properly for all users.

Basically what they do is just cull geometery and especially models that can't be seen thru them. So in the area above your spaceship, the ship wouldn't be rendered if none of it can be seen thru one of the windows.
and likewise those rooms/halls won't be rendered if you are down by the spaceship. But you can still shoot a rocket thru and someone on the other side of portal would see it.

The one thing you have to make sure is that they seal the area, no matter how big or what shape it is.


Say you have an L shaped hall and 3 windows going down into the deck area. To seal that hallway you need a portal at each end and one in each window. so it might take 5 portals to seal.
Another option would be to make all the windows one hole. All the wall in between windows would just be func_detail. Then you could use one larger portal across all 3 windows.

But if you also had a doorway into another area that went around into the deck you'd get a leak. So you'd need a portal there to.
---------
The screens look good. From looking at them you could also make ALL the triangle blocks on ceiling func_details too to cut down on vis-leafs.

[meatpopsicle]

hey sgt,

the 2 main resources ive used to try to figure when/where I can use area portals are

http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Area_portal
http://www.student.ru.nl/rvanhoorn/optimization.php?chapter=areaportals

Upon re-reading the valve page particuarly I can see where it says I could seal all holes in the area I want to do (not just 2) but the picture right next to that uses a 2 portal example so maybe I was just filling info in my brain wrong from the picture/word mistranslation? :)

thanks for the clarification though!

[Sgt Frag]

No prob.

Keep in mind that it might/might not help. check your +showbudget before and after to see what happens. I tend to think that it probably will but sometimes adding too many might be bad.

[meatpopsicle]

new screenshot - showing off a model I'm putting in the engineering section, its not done but its as far as I'll get it this weekend; enjoy

http://www.studio-erebus.com/spacebase/Site/main/screenshots/spacebase-4-2008.jpg

[meatpopsicle]

anyone have feedback or "first impression" on that model? I was wondering if there was any positive/negative reaction before I spend too much more time on it .. I've got a couple of ideas of different tweaks I could make if theres any feeling that something needs to be adjusted.

thanks in advance

meat

[oxy]

I think there are too many 'wafer' pieces. They just look too repetitive. Other then that I think it fits your theme well.

[meatpopsicle]

thanks appreciate the feedback oxy!

[DragonFlame]

uhh, what is it supposed to be?

[meatpopsicle]

its a somewhat "sci-fi" voltage transformer , i made the top flares more pronounced to give a old school 1940's sci-fi movie feel to it.

but i agree with onyx that it needs some re-work I just couldnt make up my mind so input from other people is helpful!

[meatpopsicle]

hey folks,

this weekend I finished all my lists for beta 1 in spacebase

I am now learning how to put together a map for distribution and doing some texture optimzation to reduce download size (hadn't compressed any of the textures ha!)

if anyone knows of a tutorial on packaging your map for tf2 id take a link but otherwise I'm pretty sure Ill be able to stumble through it shortly here.

I have a few interesting suprises in the map that no ones seen yet so I'm pretty excited to get it put together.

And .. oh yes I need to do the final compile, is just using the preset final compile options in hammer ok? Or is there something more I should do? I know sometimes the presets are kind of weaksauce.

thanks for any advice

meat

[meatpopsicle]

Ok I did my final compile ; default settings in hammer and it took 8.5 minutes, which really shocked me I was thinking it would be hours? Seems to run well so I'm happy with that overall.

I also compressed the textures so those are ready.

Now I just need to package it.

ctf_spacebase_b1 is on the way :D If all goes well maybe tonight. :thumbup:

meat