I added shrubs and overlays to start fleshing out what the map will look like. I know that area is boring and flat, and when I detail, i plan to make it exciting. I was thinking about exactly doing what you were suggestion, BUT I don't want to make things crowded.

The reason that that area doesn't look exciting is because I just made it yesterday, and am looking to see how it plays before detailing... I know you enjoy detailing ravage, but detailing does not make the map :)

What ravage said i thought was a gameplay addition, not a deatailing addition. It could be somewhat a detailing but, looks like it would be added for gameplay

If you had played the map, you would see that doing that would make the area more cramped, something i would prefer to avoid doing (since its already a bit small as is). Yes, it looks pretty, but it looked more like a detail thing rather than a gameplay thing. Something I did after I posted these shots is that I removed the wood wall underneath the platform with the fence. This creates a little nook for red to set up a cheap/semi-weak sentry spot.

I'm on a deadline (in my mind) ... I start a huge semester in under a month, so i'd like to focus more on gameplay now rather than making it look pretty (something I did for the 72hr contest), and as thus, would really like some feedback on gameplay for the next version, which is coming out later today.

cp_frozen_a3.bsp.bz2


a3:
broke a sentry spot in stage 1
added a ramp up to the bridges across the route after 1-1
made the canyon between 2-1 and 2-2 wider, redid the upper flank to be more seperate from the rest of the routes
broke a sentry spot in stage 2
redid red spawns in stage 3.


Issues I still know about, yet have not fixed (I don't see them as gamebreaking)
Crooked spec cam in stage 3
some setup gate doors can be flamed/exploded through.

Stuff you need to fix so far.

Overlapping overlay.

http://i.imgur.com/KeRqQ.jpg

What is this... Areaportal fail?

http://i.imgur.com/91cyD.jpg

Wierd fade. Maybe fixing it?

http://i.imgur.com/IhFyi.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/CCck5.jpg

Mm, so far I noticed these. Stay tuned.

That what you call an areaportal issue is a skybox (sealing) issue I think.

Okay, so when I say the map is too small, or doesn't have any chokes between the points. I'm not just throwing it out there without some thought. If you look at dustbowl there is this bottleneck between the points in each stage. VERY easy to identify!
Frozen has no bottleneck where red can hold blue off and give them some time to set up new sentries. So a offensive team will just ROLL right through red after the first cap.

Now for some comparison shots!
Here I've made a unit of measurement in photoshop, it doesn't translate to any nice unit number in hammer, but it's something I can count and it's always the same size.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/SS-2...48_measure.jpg

So there we have a baseline for how long you travel from setupgate->point1->point2.

On Frozen, the stages are much shorter (notably stage 2 and 3).
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/SS-2...15_measure.jpg

[Yes, both images are taken at the same scale, cl_leveloverview 9]

Thanks Ravidge, that is incredibly helpful and I really didn't fully see how small the map was until now.

I guess cp_frozen is going to be getting some enlargements...

Ravidges post was really helpful to me too and I think I'll revisit my cp_riverbank with these scales in mind.

Aw man, now my feedback seems so unintelligent :(

http://i.imgur.com/SFSqN.jpg
These need to be clipped.

http://i.imgur.com/44vl4.jpg
This is an invisible wall!

http://i.imgur.com/vZCpU.jpg
These giant tubes suddenly stop into a thin wall. Maybe push back the machine a bit so the tubes look like they go somewhere.

http://i.imgur.com/zGknk.jpg
I thought I could jump over here to the other side, but the rock model has an invisible wall. I suggest either walling this off or making it possible to get over this gap with a double jump.

Alright, so school will be starting for me soon, but I will (when I can) be working on each of the stages individually. Orange is spawn doors (not sure about the ones with the ? next to them, I will probably add the middle one.) Green are paths that you can't see from the picture (the grey platform is ~64u above the ground).... Distance from spawn to cp1 is ~1700u compared to the original distance which was 1250u (and as another reference, dustbowl s1cp1 is 2100u).

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8526839/cp_f...ge_1_prt_1.png

I am trying to work on how to make the bottom right look less dull, and how to make that mid a little less open than it is now. But this is the general layout.

Here is the first half of the new stage 1 (second half may be similiar to the original. The other stages may not get this much of a change (for example, I want to keep stage 2, but I will be reworking some things so that it is easier for blu to hold after capping cp1)... but stage 1 will get settled first, then I'll move on.


EDIT: Windmills are gone (for now?)
EDIT 2: Also, that grey roof'd building top mid does not have a room that large... the room is around half or so?
EDIT 3: Have a screenshot
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8526839/cp_f...e_a_a10000.jpg

cp_frozen_stage_a_a1


Going to be testing these stage by stage now. I completely redid the first stage, hopefully this will play better and be less chokey than the previous version.

The other stages won't be completely redone as much as this, but there will be some changes that should be very beneficial.

Enjoy, feedback welcome.

Painfully easy to snipe. I was racking up very hefty killstreaks with the sydney sleeper.

the respawn times for red in the test were 20+ seconds. that causes the following problems:
1. 20+ second respawn time sucks
2. red team doesn't respawn in time to properly set up on CP2 and has to get blu off it
3. 20+ second respawn time sucks

also, by "gay spots" in feedback i meant the pipe. a solly up there is rather unpleasant, instaflanking anyone exiting the right exit. if not clip, you could add a little awning over the spawn exit maybe

rechecked with mp_showrespawntimes, both teams had 10 seconds. odd. i clearly remember waiting 21 seconds to respawn. that happened only once tho

I'm working on a mini project right now until I can see how much time I can put into cp frozen (only 3 weeks into classes, and I have a new schedule -_-")...

Once my mini project is done I will resume work on stage 1.

Things to fix:
Respawn times
Sightlines
final cap point being too hard to defend.

Glad to see this hasn't died.

About damn bloody time.
 

Updated the first stage to cp_frozen_stage_a_a2 (blame rexy, i'm using his naming convention)

Have some pictures of the changes:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8526839/cp_f...e_a_a20000.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8526839/cp_f...e_a_a20001.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8526839/cp_f...e_a_a20002.jpg

This pictures show:
#Added a dynamic element (<3) to CP1. There is a large door that will remain down until CP1 is captured. On capture, it will rise up. There is also 2 ways around said door. It has the same flow, but not such a long sight line.
#CP2 has been reworked, it now has a dropdown into the CP building. This dropdown does not interact with the point, red can barely see any of the cap area from the drop down (this is a good thing)
#Added a little nook/thing for sentries, to cover B, but might end up being too powerful. Just testing it for now.
#Added cover coming out of lower exit for red.
#A gamebreaking Misaligned texture in the red spawn room.

This pictures do not show:
#Fixed respawn times so you don't have 20s respawns anymore

the pictures show:
a gamebreaking misaligned texture

Fix'd

Alright, so there was a small test, and I watched the demo, read feedback, looked at stats. I can't say for sure that this is the "final" layout of the first stage, but we'll see after tomorrow's gameday.

For those who will be playing cp_frozen_stage_a_a2....

What did you think of the flow?
could red defend, but blue still easily attack?
Did the map feel crowded?
How did you feel about the dropdown from reds spawn?
How did you feel about the Dynamic door?

Just a few questions I have before continueing on.

Like I said, if this test tomorrow goes well, I may start detailing this stage, and working on stage 2, which will NOT require a massive overhaul. I plan on basically making it so that its not a 90 degree turn to the point.

Updated a few days ago, but forgot to update the OP.


This is now fixed

Also Gameday bump.

i feel about the dropdown the way that dislikes the point being spammable from the dropdown. even though its just a little corner of the cap area that is shootable, me no like.

i believe that it'd be better if changed like one of the variants in pic below

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9180221/Untitled12.png

Okay, I can confidently say I like this version of stage 1 better than the old one.

There is only a few minor tweeks I will be making for the next version, but I think I'm going to start to detail this stage.

What I'll do:
Add 2 meds or 1 Full Ammo pack around point B for engies. It will probably be 2 meds spread out.
I will be clipping the windows so you can just run out them and not jump (sorry guys, forgot to do this for the current version!)
I will do something else that I just had in my head and forgot about.
Oh! I remember it now. I will make BLU's spawn no-built.

The massive change for stage 2. Now with 50% less turns
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8526839/cp_f...e_b_a10001.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8526839/cp_f...e_b_a10000.jpg

Expect stage 2 out soonish.

Hello Mappers. I made a video about this map. i ask Fr0z3n to make it. so there there it is.

:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DHROVRh-00

looks like instead of having easy attack path to point, now there is an open no man's land between the point and turn with little cover. thats just a speculation tho, gotta see how it actually plays :p

It is stage 2 a2, so it should be a little bit more difficult to cap...

STAGE 2! FIGHT!

Download: Right here!

I regret to inform you that your demo will not contain much more than about 6 players in a small skirmish. Most people had bailed long before your map came up, and the lack of players does not reflect on the quality of your map in any way.

Now, to business. One thing that I noticed was a fade distance problem, as shown in these two screenshots:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/33585227/TF2...ozen_fade1.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/33585227/TF2...ozen_fade2.jpg

Undoubtedly the texture error highlighted the models in question, making them easier to see/not see, and as such I cannot be sure how noticable the fade distance is under normal circumstances.

Additionally, certain Soldiers (specifically ])oo]v[ and Godslayer) managed to defy gravity thanks to the beam on the back of the main building by CP1:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/33585227/TF2...21_sneaky1.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/33585227/TF2...21_sneaky2.jpg

Alright, as Kier pointed out, there wasn't much in the demo for me to use, so I'll ask here.

It seems that point 2 is now too hard to defend (which, I prefer at the moment. Rather it being too hard to attack). I see some feedback about making it hard for red to get a position to hold in. I could create some places for red to hold, but I'm specifically looking for WHERE you guys, the players, would think would be best.

What I'm thinking is maybe turning the rock into basically a panel, where you can hide a sentry, and making the upper route along the cliff accessible by red. Would an adjustment in cap times also help you think?

I really want to hear what you guys say about this, since due to internet issues with my apartment, I have been un-able to get into the test myself, so I am really relying on your feedback and demos. Hopefully the internet issue will be resolved soon and I can go back to playtesting.


Stage 1 detailing has started, and Rexy's Zinkenite Valley Video has given me some extra motivation to make it look good. -DAMN YOU REXY!-

cp_frozen_stage_b_a2b

See OP for new screenshots of stage 2 and details of changes.

My midnight astrophysics conference went well, in case anyone wanted to know.

But anyways, I watched the demo of this stage from last nights test and I just have a couple questions about red spawn. I want to give them another route out of spawn, but the best locations either are an exposed sightline, or a long walk, etc etc. So here are 2 ideas I had. (Yellow line signifies a door)

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8526839/stage2_spawn1.jpg This would take red to the current area it is in, then to underneath the little bridge there is on the side. a Ramp up to the shack's roof will be provided for height advantage

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8526839/stage2_spawn2.jpg This one keeps the current spawns, but adds a longer walk up to the upper side, coming out the the wood building I currently have, over looking spawn. Would provide for upper height advantage ( could get to shack's roof)

Another idea i had was to bring a spawn out to the little platform next to the point (not onto the point itself, but to the one with the stairs after the little bridge) this thought might have too much sniper dominance.

EDIT: I would like to note that the one I'm prefering to do is the first option, but I would like to hear others opinions.

I'm going to keep the version in test for a little while. I would like to eventually get the Win ratio of Blu to Red to 3:1, maybe 3:2

Neither of those options are good because the problem is that the playable area around the point is very small and restrictive for red. Their only option is to go under the big roof while blue has to grind through them.

From the perspective of the pictures, you have some space on the bottom and even more space on the top. use that space

Decided to tweek 2-2 a little. I'm not fully happy with it yet, but I'm liking this better than the previous version. its a bit more open, around the point.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8526839/cp_f...e_b_a30000.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8526839/cp_f...e_b_a30001.jpg

I will be moving around red spawns also, so suggestions as to where would be much appreciated.

the cp isnt centerpiecy enough :p

i disagree. the CP could be quite sufficiently centrepiecey down the road once the gameplay is sorted. the detailing can make it that way. e.g. a handy satelite dish, some consoles around the point... maybe a glass floor beneath the point revealing the top half of a nucleus doomsday machine.

personally i think that the point is in a healthier position now, gameplay wise. the structure just needs some fleshing out, though i've already told frozen what i think needs to be done in that regard.

Or a windmill...


Ezekel has been extremely helpful in providing some quick feedback, and was half the reason I put this CP in its current location.

so if it sucks you know why XD

The problem I feel with the current cp is that a sneaky [insert class here] can ninja cap it without much problem simply by hiding in the corner that fathest away from the spawn's view.