Old 05-14-2011, 06:55 PM   #51
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i dont like the clutter promos bring + how they may destroy my computer's performance.

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Old 05-14-2011, 09:00 PM   #52
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Concise version:
Scout: The first scout set, but crit-a-cola could be a nice stand-in for bonk.
Soldier: Direct Hit, Gunboats, Pan
Pyro: Degreaser, Flare, Axetinguisher
Demo: Pan, Targe, Eyelander
Heavy: Natascha, KGB
Engy: Wrangler, Frontier Jusice
Medic: First DLC kit
Sniper: First DLC kit
Spy: First DLC kit , minus the dead ringer, substituting Your Eternal Reward (I use ringer but I hate it at the same time )

THERE. DONE.

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Old 05-15-2011, 09:48 AM   #53
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Why stop at unlocks? Plenty of the unlocks were meant to encourage people to move away from the defaults and their inherent issues (eg loch n load, demospam, SR, blowing up stickybombs in midair, sniper rifle, "2fort battlement garden party").

I'm predicting people to rage somewhat over the above statement, so could people in general please remember I'm not saying that they're OMG OP, just that (for example) demospam is generally annoying. Also, valve explicitly explained the reasons for the huntsman in their blog (which is basically saying the same thing as me in terms of sniper rifle).

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Old 05-17-2011, 09:11 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numerous View Post
Why stop at unlocks? Plenty of the unlocks were meant to encourage people to move away from the defaults and their inherent issues (eg loch n load, demospam, SR, blowing up stickybombs in midair, sniper rifle, "2fort battlement garden party").

I'm predicting people to rage somewhat over the above statement, so could people in general please remember I'm not saying that they're OMG OP, just that (for example) demospam is generally annoying. Also, valve explicitly explained the reasons for the huntsman in their blog (which is basically saying the same thing as me in terms of sniper rifle).
I kind of agree but afaik there's no way to disallow stock weapons. However it's become quite obvious the stock weapons weren't perfectly balanced either - stock melee weapons too weak, Wrench a bit too slow etc. I'd say after 4 years of TF2 it's obviously become more evident which weapons are useful and which aren't so I wouldn't be opposed to tweaking those either but that's gonna be far far later.

I guess since the discussion subsided a bit I'll read the thread again and tally which unlocks are the more popular and reasonable to include. Also, reskin weapons don't seem to be very liked overall.
 
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Old 05-18-2011, 11:41 AM   #55
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Okay so I made a quick list of the most liked/mentioned unlocks from most to least:

Kritzkrieg
Jarate
Flare Gun
Gunslinger
Ubersaw

Axtinguisher
Blutsauger
Equalizer
Sandvich
Cloak and Dagger

Bonk
Your Eternal Reward
Buff Banner
Dead Ringer
Degreaser
Backburner
Gunboats

Huntsman
Frontier Justice
Ambassador
L'etranger
KGB
Direct Hit

Chargin' Targe
Eyelander
Force-a-Nature
Vita-saw
Scottish Resistance
Homewrecker
GRU

Powerjack
Crit-a-Cola
Brass Beast
Natascha
Battalion's Backup
Sandman
Black Box
Razorback

Crusader's Crossbow
Amputator
Sydney Sleeper
Candy Cane
Pain Train
Dalokohs Bar
Skullcutter
Bushwacka
Kunai
Wrangler

Now popularity doesn't mean anything and I'm aware a sample size of like ten people doesn't matter but it's a summary of all the lists in here.

Of the top unlocks the one I find the most peculiar is the Cloak and Dagger. I always thought playing with the IW was a lot more fun, a lot more engaging and yes, a bit harder, but I use the CnD basically only when I want to annoy people and not play seriously. Of all the Spy unlocks the CnD is probably the most boring (to use - L'etranger still shoots people) and again seems like one of these "newbie" unlocks like the Sydney Sleeper that make playing easier but a lot less efficient.
Now I can see where the CnD can be useful, particularly on more open maps where ammo may be more sparse or in an area where ammo boxes are likely to have been picked up by enemies just before you arrived, so it's less frustrating I suppose.
Honestly though I feel like a lot of Spy players just go CnD because they don't want to bother playing very well and are instead content with a few kills and a lot slower pace. I'm not even sure how many people still use the normal watch but I'd say it's only about a fifth tops. Did people just forget how good the IW is or do they find it too frustrating or too unreliable? More generally, what makes the CnD such a liked unlock?

Thinking about it this may have to do with the server running a lot of custom maps which means layouts are unknown and can change rapidly. You can't exactly keep suiciding by making cloak run out halfway through a path just because the mapper failed to account for it (or you missed an ammo box somewhere else). So it may be a kind of TF2M-specific thing, too.
 
Last edited by Trotim; 05-18-2011 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 05-19-2011, 12:59 PM   #56
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My personal experience with the CnD was that when it first unlocked, the promise of unlimited cloak sounded awesome. After playing with it for a long while, yes your pace as a spy slows down but I think people forgte how much faster they can move about with the IW. I know I didnt switch back for a long time because I kept thinking ammo would be an issue but once I went back it felt much better. I think people get so used to the CnD that they dont want to switch because they feel they may suck with it. Just a theory
 
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Old 05-20-2011, 09:21 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NinjillaX View Post
My personal experience with the CnD was that when it first unlocked, the promise of unlimited cloak sounded awesome. After playing with it for a long while, yes your pace as a spy slows down but I think people forgte how much faster they can move about with the IW. I know I didnt switch back for a long time because I kept thinking ammo would be an issue but once I went back it felt much better. I think people get so used to the CnD that they dont want to switch because they feel they may suck with it. Just a theory
Yeah... pretty much. That's not really a weapon imbalance then though, it's just players not fully evolving/making use of the metagame I guess...

A more readable list of unlocks in the whitelist (just for having been mentioned) per class from most liked to least:
Scout - Bonk, FaN, Cola, Sandman, Candy Cane
Soldier - Equalizer, Buff Banner, Gunboats, Direct Hit, Backup, Black Box, Pain Train
Pyro - Flare Gun, Axtinguisher, Degreaser, Backburner, Homewrecker, Powerjack
Demo - Targe, Eyelander, ScoRes, Skullcutter
Heavy - Sandvich, KGB, GRU, Brass Beast, Natascha
Engie - Gunslinger, FJ, Wrangler
Medic - Kritzkrieg, Ubersaw, Blutsauger, Vita-saw, Crossbow, Amputator
Sniper - Jarate, Huntsman, Razorback, Sleeper, Bushwacka
Spy - Cloak and Dagger, YER, Dead Ringer, Ambassador, L'etranger, Kunai

The ones of these I personally really did not want to write down:
Sandman, Backup, Black Box, Pain Train, Degreaser, Powerjack, Skullcutter, Natascha, Wrangler, Amputator, Razorback, Sleeper, Bushwacka

I just don't feel they add much. Sandman and Natascha should be quite obvious as they're probably the most frustrating items in the game due to slowing/stunning.
The Pain Train, Skullcutter, Powerjack, Amputator I all just don't like because they're too similar with a negligible difference to the stock weapon or just useless. I assume the Powerjack and Amputator are in there for the set bonus only?
The Wrangler is just broken, I'm sorry. Another of the most unliked unlocks as it makes Sentries way too hard to take down with little additional skill required, on top of that it encourages turtling even more.
Black Box... has already been discussed. Far too popular a weapon it only serves to slow fights down and pretty much punishes or at least discourages rocket jumping.
Battalion's Backup, where do I start. The effect is not clear visually, it's now too hard to charge amount-wise but too easy to charge mechanically (run into spam for Rage). Even if you do deploy it the difference is negligible though and most of the time it's nothing more than a placebo, except against Kritzkrieg which is not an unlock that needs additional boring counters.
Razorback should be obvious too. Bad, boring, SMG and Jarate can already fight against seen Spies well enough and unseen Spies killing unaware Snipers is the very definition of the Spy class.
Bushwacka... giving melee instagibs to the long-range class, I don't get it. Further stops Spy from countering Snipers and just pulls Snipers in the wrong direction altogether. It's not like throwing Jarate is hard or uncommon, either, so it doesn't even count as "skill crit" unlike headshots.
The Sydney Sleeper... just not needed. Bodyshots are still very possible with the regular rifle and the faster charge rate hardly noticeable. The Sleeper is probably like the CnD in that it's the lazy man's rifle. Even worse though it doesn't even help "bad" players learn to aim better as there's zero incentive for headshots. I could accept it though as it's at least less effective than its counterpart, unlike
And the Degreaser, that's right. All it is is a Flamethrower+1. You can say Pyro needs help all you want but I will never accept a pure Primary upgrade, especially one as bland as this. On top of that the faster weapon switch looks retarded from your perspective and doesn't allow enemies any time to react to anything you do (which is why weapon switch time exists). Frankly one of the unlocks I dislike the most. Does it change the playstyle at all? Not in the slightest.
 
Last edited by Trotim; 05-20-2011 at 09:26 AM.
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Old 05-20-2011, 11:00 AM   #58
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Scout: Nothing.
Pyro: Degreaser, Axtinguisher, Flare Gun
Soldier: Equaliser
Demoman: Loch and Load, Chargin' Targe, Ullapool Caber
Heavy: Sandvich, GRU, Fists of Steel
Engineer: Frontier Justice, Wrangler, Gunslinger
Medic: Blutsauger, Kritzkrieg, Ubersaw, Vita-Saw
Sniper: Huntsman, Sydney Sleeper, Jarate, Bushwacka
Spy: Conniver's Kunai, Your Eternal Reward, Dead Ringer

Why yes, I DID just look at my loadout page.
 
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Old 05-26-2011, 07:24 PM   #59
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Alright I guess there's not much else to say then? Kind of surprises me, but...
 
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Old 06-13-2011, 01:11 AM   #60
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Golden Wrench of course because it's hardly different to the normal wrench gameplay-wise.

Razorback and Darwin's Danger Shield, neither "overpowered".
 
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