Old 04-04-2012, 05:00 PM  
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Old 04-18-2012, 07:56 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by grazr View Post
I'm also inclined to disregard community maps that havn't made it into the competitive leagues as examples of good balanced maps;
Badlands is the most played competitive map, and has identical spawn times to this map.

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as for granary, granary sports advanced spawns for every CP,
This map has forward spawns for every cp too, what's your point?
 
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:17 PM   #51
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Just would like to point out that Badlands isn't a community map. And this map isn't Badlands.

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Old 04-18-2012, 08:28 PM   #52
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as for granary, granary sports advanced spawns for every CP, so there may not be a respawn wave advantage on the mid CP, but the advantage is maintained in reduced travel times. We could have advanced spawns, but something needs to be done about the default spawn wave setting that is maintained up to the final point.


anyways i did actually have fun on this map, and I felt like some real progress had been made. spawntime advantages confuse me (they seem like a last-ditch effort to fix a somewhat broken map to me), but it might be a bit stalematey. think i'd rather try to improve the layout than mess with spawn times. it could have been super-balanced teams (it is a 5cp in a pub after all) so i'd wait and get more testing.

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Old 04-18-2012, 09:19 PM   #53
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Just would like to point out that Badlands isn't a community map. And this map isn't Badlands.
My point was that the spawn time setup isn't some ridiculous contrivance that's radically different than anything ever conceived.
 
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Old 04-18-2012, 11:28 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Selentic View Post
Badlands is the most played competitive map, and has identical spawn times to this map.
I was gonna argue that badlands has a 5 second spawn advantage for owning CP2 but just to be sure of the difference i tested lyra and saw that there was an 8 second advantage for owning mid (unsure of enemy spawn adjustments). I'm guessing there was some twilight zone shit going down because most of my respawn waves were between 18 and 24, not 12. Even still, spawn waves were only half of my arguement. The map has some issues i thought spawn wave adjustments could resolve, it just happens to be that those are already in place but just weren't working how they were supposed to because of the random spawn timer variance that's inherent in TF2 (i'm guessing).

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anyways i did actually have fun on this map, and I felt like some real progress had been made. spawntime advantages confuse me (they seem like a last-ditch effort to fix a somewhat broken map to me), but it might be a bit stalematey. think i'd rather try to improve the layout than mess with spawn times. it could have been super-balanced teams (it is a 5cp in a pub after all) so i'd wait and get more testing.
There were a number of issues i noticed. Long cap times, long travel time and long spawn waves. I thought adjusting spawn waves could kill 3 birds with one stone, but you're right. Normally i'd have suggested cutting down travel distances but after several people complained of 20 second respawn waves and noticing this myself i figured this would have been a more direct resolution.

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This map has forward spawns for every cp too, what's your point?
my point is this map needs to implement something to make it less stalematey and there are a variaty of options available to reference in official maps like granary and badlands. But you're just more intent on "making your point" instead of giving any real feedback.

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My point was that the spawn time setup isn't some ridiculous contrivance that's radically different than anything ever conceived.
Nobody said it was. We're all aware of the point you're trying to make, we just don't think it's relavent. If you can't adjust the spawn waves any more then adjust the advanced spawns. Stop stating that the map is perfect and this is true because it emulates badlands timings, because lyra stalemating across mid is not a perfect balance/flow.

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Old 04-20-2012, 12:46 AM   #55
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There were a number of issues i noticed. Long cap times, long travel time and long spawn waves.
Travel times, are roughly the same as granary, with the exception of last which is more reminiscent of badlands.

Cap times are Granary, with a slightly faster mid.

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I'm guessing there was some twilight zone shit going down because most of my respawn waves were between 18 and 24, not 12. Even still, spawn waves were only half of my arguement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tf2 Blog
Respawn waves occur on regular intervals, based on the map settings. Most of our maps use a 10 second respawn wave time. That 10 seconds is then modified by the map state, generally reduced for the team that controls the most capture points. Each team's respawn wave time is then scaled down if the team has less than 8 players in it, to a minimum of 5 seconds if team has 3 or less players in it. When you die, you are assigned to the respawn wave after the next one. So if the respawn wave time is currently 10 seconds for your team, you'll respawn somewhere between 10 and 20 seconds from your death. Your individual performance doesn't affect your respawn time in any way.
All spawn times in this map are 10 seconds, with the exception of last where attackers have 5. They're scaled up or down depending on the player count, that's why you got significantly quicker respawn times on your own.

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my point is this map needs to implement something to make it less stalematey
Wait a minute, the test you're referring to (which is the only one I've seen you in), had points changing hands a fair bit with nearly dead even teams, so I'm not sure where you're picking up this stalemate situation.

Anyway, updated to a10, details in first post.
 
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Old 04-21-2012, 12:20 PM   #56
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Okay we took a look at the latest version. It was pretty late, so we didn't really playtest the whole thing. Will try to run a full pug on it tonight. We did, however, run a couple of mid fights just to see how mid played out. Here are some of our observations.

1) Last looks pretty cool. Seems like a very cool take on badlands. The one thing we all immediately noticed was that you could see second from last. This was initially VERY confusing, and a lot of the people in the pug thought it was going to be completely imbalanced, etc. I mean, I can see why someone might want to see second from spawn immediately (makes it easier to find your way around) but it makes for a very strange first moment entering the map (first impressions are going to be key for comp play).

2) Okay, lets talk about that door. The door exists to help with rollouts, and to let players see second. As soon as the enemy team captures mid, the door locks. Personally, I'm really not crazy about that.

First, if you play the map and see that you can rollout to that door, but then it turns out later as you rush to second that that door is now unusable, your going to be frustrated. Obviously, someone familiar with the map will be okay with it, but new comp players will be confused, rather than appreciating what it does for rolling out.

Second, I don't think you need to really facilitate faster rollouts on your map unless the faster rollout path serves some other purpose for the rest of the way the map plays out. Example: gullywash has the lower exit that leads to the garage, which allows teams to rollout to mid and get there about the same time (soldier, demo and scout show up fairly close together, instead of demo getting there quicker and locking everything down). However, that door also serves specific purposes in terms of flank attack routes and having to watch behind you when you defend second. Letting someone get into that door early means you can get flanked by a scout and drop your med, etc. The door your locking down serves no purpose other than rollout after you close it.

Third, I'm of the opinion that the area you lock down (the lobby area with the half circle railings) is actually one of the coolest parts of the map. What you've done by locking that door completely is take one of the cooler geometry areas and really minimalize the amount of fighting or decision making that goes into a place like that. I personally would make that door that locks into a different sort of exit (think gravelpit c with the huts with two exits on either side) so that combat can flow into and out of that area for defending/attacking second and last.

Fourth, for me it has proven almost universally the case that you don't want two entrances between any point in a 5cp map. The maps which do have only two entrances almost always tend to grind out into stalematey nonsense (I'm thinking primarily of gullywash/freight/waste here, though a couple of seasons ago granary would have had similar issues with the push from mid to second, though with granary a lot of this problem has been resolved by teams getting a lot better and more agressive). When the door locks, you end up with only two exits out to second, both of which seem very easy to lock down from the same position (sitting on the bridge), making it really hard to push out and do anything unless you get like a full wipe on the enemy team. If you change the locking door up, then you'll have at least three exits which should help a bit, but I would still reconsider the right or left exit. You need to have a longer exit that puts the players into a bit of an out of the way position so flankers can get behind, so that the enemy team holding second has to really watch behind and check other angles.

3) The ramp room seems pretty interesting, but you should keep in mind how much of an advantage that location will give to snipers. They can see pretty much the entire second point from up there, while at the same time being almost completely impossible to attack from many angles, without pushing a scout through the entire enemy team.

4) If your defending second, the path to the left of the bridge (not the water one but the one with the handrails) seems really strange. I mean, I walk into that room and anticipate being able to walk right towards mid immediately, but you've got these handrails that make jumping up there impossible. Having to walk a lot further because of some oddly placed props doesn't feel great and it makes a walk to mid from there pretty lame. The water route is actually faster to get to pretty much the same place.

5) Okay here comes the big one. Mid is cool, but WAY too big. Essentially, if you look at any other 5cp map, when you get to the mid point you are always about 1 to 1.5 rocket jumps from the enemy team. 1.5 rocket jumps is a bit extreme and usually refers to the enemy team going the same route as you (so they end up on the opposite side of the point from you) like say on granary both teams coming out the left exit. You have to walk a bit to get into RJ position, but not really too far. With your map, I feel like when I get to mid I'm 2.5 to 3 RJs from the enemy team. I have to walk from the far right entrance to behind the cargo containers, and then I have to walk from behind the containers to the point and then I can jump on the enemy team. Thats way too far to walk in my opinion and it makes mid fights feel like your at mid but you haven't quite reached it just yet, which doesn't seem like a great way to start out the combat on a 5cp.

Some recomendations on things to fix for mid:

First, the largest change that I would recommend is to slide the entrances to mid over to the left. Basically, you keep mid the same shape, but you move all of the geometry at second/last over. What this should result in is the bridge exit (from water/left side) should end up behind the left side cargo containers, or pretty close to it, while the right side exit should end up must closer to the right side cargo containers. This means, as you approach mid, you'll end up in a much closer position to the point itself, rather than having to walk around the cargo containers. Think granary. You walk out of garage, turn left and the point is right there. Walk out the left entrance, turn right, the point is a just a little further. ETC.

Second, shrink down the dimensions of the mid area by a bit. The area behind the cargo container is pretty huge, almost a mid point itself. Drag the wall there in by about half. The gap between lower and mid is also pretty huge, cut that by about half as well, though you might need to cut the balcony area itself as well by a bit.

Third, this one is pretty extreme and might not be the sort of thing you'll want to hear, but I think the lower area is a bit of a problem. Mid fights should tend to be fairly concise and to the point. You don't want a whole lot of areas to check for lurking enemy players who are going to attempt to back cap you. Likewise, lower areas like you have tend to be problematic for medics. A medic is playing close to his pocket, gets knocked around by a rocket, or slightly held up by a scatter gun shot, misses his jump on the bridge and falls down to the lower area. Now, the medic isn't healing anyone, because of how far away he is from his team, is likely to get bombed with no one able to save him, and even if he lives, he is going to have to walk up the odd ramp thing (only way up out of the lower area IRC) and his team is likely dead before he gets back to healing them. If the lower area was less extreme or it had a path up that was a bit less problematic then I would be somewhat okay with it, but as it stands now, I think its mostly just wasted space that really detracts from what could be a rather fun mid fight.

Okay, thats a lot of text to deal with. One last thing though: you mentioned that cap times on the map are pretty close to granary. On our mid fight playtests, mid seemed to take a lot longer than granary. I don't know if you did anything to the cap multiplier? Number of players to cap? etc. You might want to check again. I mean, at one point we were able to die with half our team, respawn three players and have them run to mid, and still keep fighting over the same point because the whole other team couldn't cap fast enough. Not sure whats going on there, but I would look into it again.
 
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Old 04-21-2012, 10:21 PM   #57
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Whoa, I'll check that post over tomorrow, I'm really tired right now and would probably not be able to handle it all. Looks pretty great though, thanks a lot dude.
 
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Old 04-23-2012, 07:02 PM   #58
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Alright, I think I changed things to hopefully solve everything you mentioned.

Updated to a11, details in first post.
 
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Old 04-23-2012, 09:00 PM   #59
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On second thought, I restored the door. Gonna keep it until I can come up with a better idea for what to do with that area, I did keep the updated transitions though, so those will hopefully alleviate the issues, and who knows, might even turn out alright (probably not, but here's to hoping right?)
 
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