Quay ( /ˈkiː/ ) is a regular 5cp map designed by chojje ( /ʃɔ'jɛ/ [↘↗] ), set in some sort of harbour/quay area. It's being designed for competitive play and will keep working with the height differences that I've been experimenting with in Snakewater. Using areas that will allow you to get close to the enemy before engaging in battle it will hopefully lead to action packed matches.
Currently it's in beta state which of course means it's still very much in development. If you do try out the map, please leave a comment here or add me on steam and tell me what you think!
TviQ, Compleat, Crafz, atmo and the map testing groups!
This looks good, I really dig a lot of the geometry I'm seeing. What I don't like is the bizarre, out of place detail work.
This is mixing wood, metal, concrete and brick. It's a visual mess. You've got wood supports going through metal platforms and touching down on metal-topped concrete, and right next to that is wood which apparently has concrete sides. And why is there caution tape here instead of just a metal trim if you want to delineate a walkway? Who would do this?
Please don't use that dark red roof texture as a wall texture, or change it a bit so it fits better. It's incredibly detail and color saturated and sticks out a lot. Maybe it's not as bad in game? What's worse here is the metal ramps and bridges. What are those doing there? Why are they there? Who did this? If the crane did it, how? They are probably better off as wood beams. I see no way for that crane to have dropped them there.
Rather than edit my original post, I thought I'd put my comments in a new post so you realize there's more feedback! This feedback is based on me fooling around in the map though, not playing a game, so take this with a grain of salt.
First, kudos for the competitive mapping. As someone who loves snakewater and wishes it were official so he could buy cool map stamps for it, I've gotta hand it to you for keeping at it. I play competitive (sixes) so I hope that what I say is received with as much enthusiasm as it is given.
I'm assuming that this map is meant for sixes, because MOTHER OF FLANK! Running through this map confused the living daylights out of me the first time, and there are just so many options to choose from when rolling out that I have no clue where to go! I feel that a highlander match here would degenerate into each of the classes trying to control one of the MANY routes between areas, with less class support than is normally found in highlander. That said, I don't play much highlander so I could be entirely wrong, and I've never seen a match played on your map so I can't really give any insight there! Not to mention that highlander is nothing more than a glorified pub....just kidding, I don't really mean that.... (shifty eyes)
The rest of this post assumes a focus on sixes.
After looking at the entire map with noclip, I determined where the main and flank routes are likely to be. In my experience on official and non-official maps, everyone rolls out from last through flank to mid, usually bypassing the second point (except for in Granary and Cold/Warmfront, but they're the exception rather than the rule). There's no exception in your map, it seems to stick with that theory, and you've placed the second point off to the side, similar to in snakewater, badlands, gullywash, and (sort of) process. One thing that bugs me about the midpoint is that the demo has the option of jumping straight through to bomb the med, which is a little more difficult on maps like badlands because of the higher buildings in the way, and the med usually rolls out through the house. It seems to me that the quickest route to mid involves going up the wooden stairs by the beachy area, which is wide open and susceptible to sudden demo rushes. The alternate option is to go up the concrete ramps past second and into the garage/house, and out onto the point via the medkit/ammo box. Obviously, play experience will tell better than I can whether the team will take the time loss to be a bit safer, but that's just one minor concern I have.
One thing I don't like is the ammo and health on the midpoint. >.< That's a personal preference though, and the health happens on granary too (though it is more easily reached by meds and scouts if they want to go that route. I don't see a way for the med to get up there on your map). At least you had the decency to keep them small.
My other annoyance is the flank route past the garage, the "BAR" routes. You're really giving the scouts a lot of options to choose from, which can be a lot of fun but also quite overwhelming for the defending team (pushing either from mid to second or vice versa with so many flanks to watch, particularly when they attack each point from such separate angles).
Your lobbies are huge and confusing. As someone who is trying to map for competitive tf2 myself, one of the most difficult tasks has been keeping the lobby and house a manageable size and complexity, so I can relate if you've found that they tend to grow by themselves! That may be something that only matters when you're unfamiliar with the map though, testing will reveal it if that's the case. PS: I don't really like snakewater's lobby much either, that ramp to the lower section seems kind of forced. I still like snakewater though!
There's one spot on last that seems totally out of the way by the DANGER: HIGH VOLTAGE door, where spies could decloak or any attacker could hide after the ubers pushing into last? I'm not sure what the point of this little niche is. Also, the big shipping crates are stacked quite oddly, and I kind of wonder how they got that way. The geometry seems useful for a hiding roamer though.
Also: TOO MANY DOORS! I am guessing that many of the locked spawn doors are to areas you tested before as forward spawns, but it makes it very confusing to have doors all over the place, because I expect people to come out of them. See Gullywash for a perfect example of extra doors that confuse people (no offense Arnold, as I don't know the conditions for the map's acceptance by Valve, etc etc...).
My final complaint is that you have tons of areas that are inaccessible to the non-jumping classes. My personal preference is that all areas should be accessible to every class, even if it means they have to take a long time to get there. I find that it adds to the element of surprise and can make the map more fun to play in; I've spent a lot of time as medic, looking longingly at the roof of Snakewater's mid....
A good rule I've tried to stick to is: if it's a brush and one person can stand on it, then everyone should be able to stand on it, but if it's a prop it's up to your discretion. But don't let me tell you how to map, do your own thing and make your map stand out! It looks great and I look forward to testing it out in scrims with my team, lobbies, and even pugs if possible. Keep up the good work!
Also: my badlands/gullywash imitation map, trundle, should be released in alpha within the next two weeks if I can finish my school assignments early. Feel free to check it out when it does!
EDIT: The text block really needs an apology, so here it is: Sorry. I just get excited when people make comp maps.
Last edited by nightwatch; 11-11-2012 at 12:28 AM.
I don't mind a text block at all, in fact that's exactly what I need: someone to tell me exactly what they feel when running through the map!
I agree that the map might be slightly confusing at first, but I personally feel like it's mostly about being unfamiliar with the map, as you say. The lobby is rather big, but I don't feel it's impossible to manage. I've been considering removing the bar route entirely simply because it isn't used at all, but I need some more playtesting before I decide whether it's redundant or not.
Personally I don't mind places being inaccessible to non-jumping classes. Adding a pillar in an area is such an effective way of creating an interesting height difference, but as soon as you add ramps and ways for medics to reach they clutter the map. For now I'll keep it this way; maybe some future version will see it changed.
When it comes to detail, thanks yyler for the feedback. I've only done a very basic initial art pass, so I'll definitely take a look at making the art style more consistent.
I really hope you try it out in scrims; the map will be played in ETF2L 6th cup, but I'm really hoping for some feedback from across the pond as well! Just some players commenting on the map after a 6v6 is invaluable.
This looks and feels great and different than any official map. Its very nice! I think the only thing that messes with me is looking at the water.
I really like the variety of paths and the fact nothing is absolutely straight forward. Staircases, winding walkways, drop downs. It is some beautiful map design. Every class has a use here and no one seems to overshadow any others. Its great. Every point is a fest for the eyes. Nothing feels cramped like other CP maps I've played. Its not chaotic or orderly.
Beating this level feels like a pleasurable accomplishment.
Really good stuff.
I wasn't all that confused by your safe rooms, but perhaps I didn't see them all. I did kind of want to jump on the blue boat.
not sure if I'm missing it from the screenshot - but do you only have the 'capture zone' on the one ramp? If yes put on all ramps or remove it from the one you do have - unless you can only cap the point from that one ramp - if this is the case - put a large arrow on it.
This is a lot shinier than it realistically should be. This is repeated under some pipes between last and second I think. Who would wax this concrete? Who would wax it under some pipes? It's weird.