PL Cactus Canyon

xzzy

aa
Jan 30, 2010
815
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The map has some neat geometry going for it in the sense that the terrain feels fresh and fighting is generally fun, but it's definitely got issues with flow. Each stage has that one spot where everything grinds to a complete stop and the teams shoot at each other until the clock runs down or they inch the cart to the final point.

Other areas of the map are over in 20 seconds and never see any serious fighting. The clusters on the heatmaps are pretty good evidence of this behavior.
 
Oct 6, 2008
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heatmaps? what are they and how do yo see them - can they be done after a map has played?
 

tyler

aa
Sep 11, 2013
5,102
4,621
I don't actually think the "bad" chokes are that bad

I don't like how open parts of it are and for that reason really like some of Ravage's ideas

Some of the sniper lines are fucking awful

It reminds me a lot of Thunder Mountain and Hoodoo which is good and bad

Thanks for reading
 

fauks

L2: Junior Member
Jul 7, 2013
68
17
Some of the routes should be tweaked, the final point up the last slope is bizarre, but in general I quite like it. It plays like a hilly version of Goldrush which isn't a bad thing.
 

Turbo Lover

Fight me under Glasgow Central Station
aa
Feb 15, 2011
333
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Something about this map makes it really difficult for me to know what to say about it, but I'll give it a go.

Stage 1 has some really nice height difference, I really dig the variation in the vertical space.

Somebody said that area around the first control point was like two chokes placed one after the other, I'd call it one giant choke that takes up a third of the cart's path, but I agree in spirit. BLU just push RED back into even more choke with more extreme height and they need to prepare their attack from within the same choke. Making the existing flanks more accessible to BLU or adding another route that only opens once the point is capped - like Goldrush - might make it easier for the attackers.

Stage 2 got rid of a lot of the height variation I liked about the first stage, which I'm pretty bummed about.

Both side routes near BLU spawn see very little use - the deathpit one is practically invisible, too. Everyone just barrels down the slope which forces RED back very quickly. But that's fine because then RED can put a sentry or two on the other side the doorway that all traffic must pass through to get to the other side of the map and shut down the offence.

I need to play more to get a good feel for the final point on stage 2.

The second stage can be pretty difficult to attack with chokes like the one after the first point, but I think the stage kind of needs those chokes. The second stage feels a lot shorter than the first stage did, so much so that without the big choke it'd probably a pretty quick round. It's probably not that much shorter, but it did feel that way.

This map still feels pretty weird to me, more testing required.
 

fauks

L2: Junior Member
Jul 7, 2013
68
17
The two stages blur in my mind and I realised why. It's that the general curve+slope of the stages are the same - just the cart going different directions. Could Valve just mirror one of the stages?
 

Newe6000

L1: Registered
Jun 20, 2014
15
5
I don't care for Thunder Mountain either, to be honest. It just feels like I'm playing three different maps with the same theme. Especially since there's no sense of direct progression between the stages like there is in Gold Rush, where you can see into the next/previous stage from where they meet (same problem I have with Pipeline).

I hate how valve has seemingly given up on multi-stage maps where the stages flow together like in dustbowl. What you say is so true, without that swapping of spawn rooms and opening up of the map like happens in gold rush it just feels like 3 maps played one after another.
 
Mar 23, 2010
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I think the dropdown/wide route at 2-2 needs to be improved. it's not good enough for blue. I really like the point though, it's like a spire somewhat. I think the silo area and the choke right after 2-1 could be improved as well. The choke is worse than goldrush because of how there isn't an alt route immediately after (the dropdown into the water is too far). Goldrush has that staircase immediately after while cactuscanyon has that dropdown ~512 units across without any cover with a big open area and long sightlines.

I agree with ravage that there arent enough sentry spots at the chokes. 1-2 might be my favorite part of the map, although you really have to roll 1-1 to have a good chance. 1-1 could be improved too, i like ravage's idea for the sentry spot building.

This has potential to be one of the funnest pub payloads imo.
 

xzzy

aa
Jan 30, 2010
815
531
While I feel bad making conclusions based off a single incident, this area seems maybe a little too powerful for engineers that work well together.

0A4F69B0A85D185537497A1F382B64453BD1FF09


Technically that's a problem with many maps, but this one feels like it could be an issue because the defenders have the high ground and great cover, and offense really only has one flank route (which is also covered by a sentry). They can't inch the cart either because it's a rollback zone.

The sentries on the left are vulnerable to an uber, which is good, but there's a full ammo kit there so if defense holds it's pretty easy to get the sentries back up.

I didn't see it in this particular game but maybe a demo that gets ignored where that soldier on the extreme left is standing could take out the left sentry with stickies, giving his team a chance to crack the defense.
 

Pocket

Half a Lambert is better than one.
aa
Nov 14, 2009
4,694
2,579
If that were true, then every RED team would go all-engie and turtle to easy victory in every A/D map, all the time. Too many engineers means it's easy for a spy to disguise as one and spam the sapper while the real engineers try frantically to figure out which one is the imposter. Or for a heavy-medic combo to build up an ubercharge and burst in because everyone's hanging back at the sentry nest and nobody's covering the area leading up to it.
 

Crash

func_nerd
aa
Mar 1, 2010
3,315
5,499
New stage is interesting! A bit of a cluster right away as we were learning it, but the final capture mechanic is unique and fun. Plus it's rewarding players with train-death for capturing, so that's always a plus in my book.

I think it might be an interesting test to shorten the train a bit with each capture and send it a slightly more often.
 

Turbo Lover

Fight me under Glasgow Central Station
aa
Feb 15, 2011
333
344
I really don't like attacking 1-2, I feel like I don't have any choice in how I approach and attack the point.

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Every route to attack second (Blue arrows) leads through these big death zones (Red boxes) where RED have the high ground and BLU are squeezed through tight spaces. There's no way to reach the flanks safely without first pushing RED's main line of defence back. The same line of defence that's raining down rockets, grenades and sentry fire from the heavens - and if you can't stay with the cart through all that, it rolls back.

Maybe without the rollback zones it'd be more palatable, but BLU still have no flanking options due to their entrances being situated behind the front lines. So I figure what it needs is a new route.

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I'm terrible at paintovers, so lemme describe it with words. Instead of the rockwall that currently exists, there's a building which is locked off until the capture of the first point - like the building in Badwater. The entrance to this is building is above the full healthpack, which leads to some stairs, and the stairs lead to a window overlooking the small healthpack & medium ammokit. To the right of this window would be a dropdown leading to a doorway that would be placed where the deathpit currently is.

The entrance to this building is in an area that's relatively safe for BLU once the first point is captured, which would automatically make it a far more reliable flanking option than the existing ones - and the addition of it would even make the rightmost existing flank more accessible, further improving upon BLU's lack of choice in how to attack the point. The addition of a building in this location would also create a second area in which offensive Engineers would be capable of setting up a nest - and a teleporter - that is more defensible and further forward than the current choice of BLU Engineers to set up in the room with two giant windows looking in - one of which is in sight of the first zone of death. The window effectively disempowers RED's hold on the first death zone - letting BLU utilise the leftmost flank more - but makes anyone peeking through it vulnerable to the large sightline across the area. The dropdown would prevent RED from using the building against BLU while also forcing BLU to commit to any push made from this building as they cannot easily retreat, which coupled with its flanking position would place a fair bit of stress on the defence from this side.

In general, I think that the focus of any future developments on this map should be on the first stage. Due to how defensible the second point of this first stage is, I still don't feel like I can give half-decent feedback on stage 2 because I so rarely get to see it.

As for stage 3, I've only seen it twice and both times were occasions on which teams were heavily unbalanced and RED was being steamrolled, so I barely even know what stage 3 looks like, nevermind how it plays. That said, I must ask if the lack of setup time is intentional. Setting up a few hasty level threes barely even slowed BLU down in the previous stages, the sudden removal of it dashed RED's only hope of even beginning to defend - and it seems at odds with the extra long setup times of stages 1 and 2. My opinion on that may change with more balanced teams, however.

Finale was cool, though.
 
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xzzy

aa
Jan 30, 2010
815
531
A route through the existing structures (first screenshot, the buildings on the lower left) that doesn't require you to poke your head into sniper alley might work too. Like that room with the ramp in it that leads to the window in the lower right of the first screenshot.. build a flank route from there to the final CP area and the problem might be solved because once someone on blue team gets into that area and is killing people, red is kind of screwed.
 

EArkham

Necromancer
aa
Aug 14, 2009
1,625
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I really don't like attacking 1-2, I feel like I don't have any choice in how I approach and attack the point.

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I agree. The few times I've gone up to this area, I've stopped, looked around, and asked myself, "Why did I come up here?" The stairs and shape of geometry seem to naturally guide you to it, yet you have to jump back down and progress through that kill zone to get the cart going again. It seems really well suited to turn into a flank.

Though maybe it shouldn't be such a direct route around the choke. Perhaps a one-way door so BLU players have to commit to the flank.

Or make it risky, as an open air walkway hanging over the death pit.

Also, I really think the death pits could stand to have some of those skull & crossbone signs that are normally around death pits. There are several areas that are a little confusing ("is this nodraw or is it a death p... AHHH, yes, it's a death pit!").
 

Rizz

L5: Dapper Member
Dec 18, 2009
210
21
Really miss this map having 3 stages. I wholeheartedly detest the train stage, it's way to chaotic. My intentions are not to insult you as a level designer regarding the train stage, it's just unbalanced. It feels like another level designer made it entirely. I thoroughly enjoy the first and second stages to the map; however, it seems you removed the second stage...
I enjoy all the class specific locations, like scout only jumps, or soldier/demo only height areas. I'd like to help model some map props for you sometime, just shoot me a friend request if you'd like to collaborate.
 

Fruity Snacks

Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums
aa
Sep 5, 2010
6,394
5,571
Really miss this map having 3 stages. I wholeheartedly detest the train stage, it's way to chaotic. My intentions are not to insult you as a level designer regarding the train stage, it's just unbalanced. It feels like another level designer made it entirely. I thoroughly enjoy the first and second stages to the map; however, it seems you removed the second stage...
I enjoy all the class specific locations, like scout only jumps, or soldier/demo only height areas. I'd like to help model some map props for you sometime, just shoot me a friend request if you'd like to collaborate.

They probably removed stage 2 for one of a couple reasons: To focus testing on stage 1 and 3, and/or to rebuild stage 2.


Also, specifically:
...I'd like to help model some map props for you sometime, just shoot me a friend request if you'd like to collaborate.

You do know this map is being made by Valve, right? And this is just our public discussion thread about it?
 

RaVaGe

aa
Jun 23, 2010
733
1,210
So I playtested it today again, and this map clearly lacks of pacing, the chokes are clearly shifted away from the control points, wich could work for a CP map, but not in a PL. There's something pretty important in every A/D maps, wich imo lacks here, it's the sentry nest and how the map manage to lead the engineers to the right sentry spot.

So first, pacing, imo a PL map should always work by this way :

CHOKE.jpg


The first part should always be a steamroll for the BLU team, they can take a solid position on the map and the first Ubercharges from both team should be popped there.

Then when the BLU team get on the first choke, an engineer should be there to block the progression of the BLU team, while the RED team congregate to this small area to protect the control point and the engineers. The real fight should start there, and the more spam there is the funniest it is, both team should focus on this area only. With the pressure of the BLU team, the RED team usually can't hold the position anymore and have to go back to the last point.

Here's the purpose of the map choke right after the control point, this area is usually a tight path where the RED team can hold this position for a small amount of time and prevent a complete BLU steamroll, this give the opportunity to the RED engineers to build a defence, and to get a full team wich is ready to defend this area.

When the CP1 is capped, this area should ALWAYS be useless for the the RED team, if the RED team can push back to the first control point, you are doing it wrong.

So now I think you aren't taking enough consideration to the engineers and how much they are important into an A/D map, they are doing the pace, they have to rythm the game by themselves, and that's another point where your map is doing it wrong, engineers aren't important in your map, there's no good sentry nest, looks at badwater by example, at the CP2, when you have an engineer on the roof, the BLU team won't pass, and they won't cap, if that RED engineer get enough help from his team, the BLU will have an hard time to cap, and they will have to focus on that engineer instead and congregate to that small area, the fun usually starts here. Once it's clear and the engineer is out, the BLU steamroll can start until the next choke.

Your map doesn't do that, the engineer don't really know where to build because the chokes aren't in the right position, and the few good sentry spots aren't near the control point or they aren't just good sentry spots and it become too easy for the BLU team to get rid of the sentry. Thus the team don't know where to go and where to defend, and the map instantly become a DM map. Pacing and engineers are too important to not get taken into consideration.

So I have this huge complain about the pacing on the map, but I also have to complain about the overall brushwork and design wich I find terribly simple.

The verticality on the map is always advantaging the defending team, wich I think is wrong for two reasons :

1 - The BLU team is always in the disadvantaged position, wich shouldn't be always the case, atm you are facing a RED wall wich spam you from the heights, everytime. Note that I'm always talking about the track wich follow the cart here, there's some areas where the BLU are advantaged, but never when they are with the cart. When the BLU team can make their steamroll, they should have the advantage on the RED team.

2 - When you are playing a vertical map wich advantage only a single team, you can consider this map as flat with a penality for the other team. A vertical map is a map where the teams are advantaged/disadvantaged according to where they are.

So here goes the pictures :

So I have to be honest with you I hate the pacing on the first level, that said, I have some idea for a better gameplay on some area.

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I still don't get why this spawn has only two doors, it's a pain in the arse to get out of it when there's a competent team in front of you.

Also this area is boring imo, idk the design is too simple to my eyes, there's just nothing interesting. But ffs, add another spawn door please.

I don't want to add more pictures for this stage since I don't like it, and the whole design of the stage have to change imo, because yeah, pacing.

So here we come, stage 2, the idea is interesting while it easily turn into a DM map clusterfuck. The main issue here is that you can go everywhere everytime, no limits, you can go to the opposite of the core goal of the gamemode, doesn't matter, it's a DM map, nobody care anymore of the cart.

So first imo, you should limit the moves of the BLU team, why can they go the the final area while the first point isn't even capped ? Doesn't make sense at all.

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Yeah, just screw that middle area, it's where the issue is at, and actually that's the same issue in thundermountain's last stage btw (I guess you are the LD of this map too). You can go litteraly everywhere both spawns are facing from a small distance, and suddently this map become dm_store. The cart has vanished from the map when the first CP is capped.

You should also add a configuration time, like that the RED team can build a defence on the first CP.

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While I have no complains about the first area (yeah really), you HAVE to keep this door closed, it's too easy to get around the choke and then overtake the RED defence.

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Move the spawn here to there

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The small issue is that the train can become annoying for the players who are coming from the spawn, think about it.

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Some ideas, but you get it, you need a good choke there.

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It could be a nice way to leads the teams to the right area.

Also note that it looks like i'm teaching a Valve guy, but I mainly try to show to everyone the best (imo) way to give feedback to people, and that's what it lacks there on tf2maps sadly, solid feedback. But I guess we need a lot more of competent level designer here to acheive that (not that i'm taking myself as a competent LD), but you get the point.
 
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