PL Cactus Canyon

RubbishyUser

L7: Fancy Member
Feb 17, 2013
414
488
Hey, I'll have you know I liked Thundermountain Stage 3! In fact, I'd say that despite appearances, the two stages (stage 3 thundermountain and stage 2 cactuscanyon), are actually very different. It's because Thundermountain's last point is so incredibly unassailable before any points are capped that players are forced to head to the points themselves, with A giving a balcony and some respite that looks over C, and B actually providing a direct route without going up the winding centre area.

But first, a brief aside. Ravage, I'm sorry but that whole post was extremely condescending. In fact, I think if people say "I don't like any of _____" then they really shouldn't be playing it any more - it just simply isn't for them, and any criticism is invalid. That should be a general rule for life. Since you failed to suggest that you liked any portion of the map, I think it's safe to say that your post is nothing more than damning condemnation and would make any self-respecting Valve employee collapse into the soft, calming embrace of Gabe himself.

That's not to say you didn't bring up anything of merit: the first half of the post is exemplary explanation of the pacing of any "serious" payload map. It's what I failed to understand when I built pl_octagon - the points fell within the map chokes, resulting in horrible stop-start gameplay. The diagram clearly explains it, as well. Good job.

And yet, that isn't even what Valve has failed to do in stage 1 of Cactuscanyon. Despite the literally uphill struggle of making a map on a gradient that didn't reduce the defense to an insurmountable fortress, they managed to divide up the map and create the flow you demanded - and maybe the team you played on just failed to capitalize on it. Not only that, they do it without awkward one-way doors or dropdowns or the other gimmicks used in more complex maps.

You're right that the cart is never on the high ground. That's because the high ground is a series of interlocking balconies and paths accessible only by the blue team that allow them to get the drop on the height advantage naturally enjoyed by the red team. On every part of stage 1, for every nasty hill that Blu is forced to assault, there is a balcony looking over it that is easily accessible from only their side.

Except in one location - shortly after the first point. It's a tiny area, but the whole of Blu is forced through the first point itself, before the map immediately widens with the routes up into the building. This is the "map choke" you spoke of - and sure enough, just in front is the first point with the ammo and health where engineers invariably set up. Which is an area where Blue has balconies and other flanks, negating the huge height advantage Red has.

Actually, it wasn't until you made this post that I realized exactly how well designed Cactus Canyon was, at least the first stage. I was starting to also like the original stage 2 before it was cut. All it requires are some fair and intelligent teams and a little give in what you want.

I'm going to disregard the entire second half of your post because it's very clear that you want to make a different map to them. Just remember that just because you don't like it, there are others who do and will not appreciate the fire you're spitting.
 
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RaVaGe

aa
Jun 23, 2010
733
1,210
But first, a brief aside. Ravage, I'm sorry but that whole post was extremely condescending. In fact, I think if people say "I don't like any of _____" then they really shouldn't be playing it any more - it just simply isn't for them, and any criticism is invalid. That should be a general rule for life. Since you failed to suggest that you liked any portion of the map, I think it's safe to say that your post is nothing more than damning condemnation and would make any self-respecting Valve employee collapse into the soft, calming embrace of Gabe himself.

Actually you miss the point, I give feedback because I don't like the map and I explain it why with solid arguments. That's why you give feedback no ? Because you don't like something, if I loved this map, I wouldn't give any feedback.

And actually I didn't helped much for the first stage because like I said, the whole pacing is screwed, and doing paintover on some buildings will not change anything imo.

But I think the second stage can work if you screw that middle area.

And yet, that isn't even what Valve has failed to do in stage 1 of Cactuscanyon. Despite the literally uphill struggle of making a map on a gradient that didn't reduce the defense to an insurmountable fortress, they managed to divide up the map and create the flow you demanded - and maybe the team you played on just failed to capitalize on it. Not only that, they do it without awkward one-way doors or dropdowns or the other gimmicks used in more complex maps.

Like I said before, it's not really that the uphill is really hard to climb, but you have to change the roles sometimes, and that argument is a continuation to the pacing issue.

Also of course the map has a flow, but the cart stop where it shouldn't stop,
that's the point here, and that's why I don't find the map fun, you are struggling to push the cart where usually you should just roll over the RED team.

You're right that the cart is never on the high ground. That's because the high ground is a series of interlocking balconies and paths accessible only by the blue team that allow them to get the drop on the height advantage naturally enjoyed by the red team. On every part of stage 1, for every nasty hill that Blu is forced to assault, there is a balcony looking over it that is easily accessible from only their side.

Yep sure, but the objective here is the cart, not that this is really a big issue to my eyes, but I could enjoy to not be spammed from the top when I push the cart sometimes.

Except in one location - shortly after the first point. It's a tiny area, but the whole of Blu is forced through the first point itself, before the map immediately widens with the routes up into the building. This is the "map choke" you spoke of - and sure enough, just in front is the first point with the ammo and health where engineers invariably set up. Which is an area where Blue has balconies and other flanks, negating the huge height advantage Red has.

Yes but the issue here is that the choke is way too hard to go trough, if you look at my diagram, you clearly see that there should be a BLU steamroll right after it, wich isn't the case. Either the BLU team completly steamroll this area, because the RED team haven't been able to create a defence around that choke, or it becomes impossible to go trough it and the maps end there.

It shouldn't end there, it should end near the control point, where the engineers should be.

So the issue there, is the map choke and the RED choke/control point are way too close to eachother, and that map choke becomes the RED choke, resulting in no BLU steamroll at all, or a complete steamroll for them if the RED team fail to defend on the choke.

But as you can see, that's mean a lot of change, and a lot of new area, that's why I don't give much help on this stage.

I'm going to disregard the entire second half of your post because it's very clear that you want to make a different map to them. Just remember that just because you don't like it, there are others who do and will not appreciate the fire you're spitting.

Yeah I want them to make a different map, because they can do way much more imo. Also note that I give my very personal opinion about how the PL gamemode should work, with my loooooog experience on TF2, and my small experience in the level design field, maybe some people enjoy DM in PL, maybe they don't care about the objective, but it's not what TF
is all about.
 

RubbishyUser

L7: Fancy Member
Feb 17, 2013
414
488
Yeah, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I cannot see the issues you do, and since it's no more than personal opinion, we could shout at each other until our metaphorical faces turn Blu. Just know that from my experience, Blu rolls until the hill before A, red puts up a defense at the point, blu pushes the cart half way up the rollback area before hitting the next "choke", red defends again and the stage is either won or lost there.

On the subject of payload DM, I refer you to Hightower, or if that doesn't count because of the race aspect, then again I guess I suggest Thundermountain stage 3. On top of that, it's hard to say that Valve have shied away from DM-fests in the past, releasing Doomsday, picking up Standin, and so on. Any complaints that stage 2 Cactus Canyon is a DM fight will fall on deaf ears, when it is clearly designed such that last is as easy to reach as first.

My point when I say that if you see nothing valuable in a map you shouldn't say anything at all, is not that "your opinion doesn't matter because you are a "hater"" - just that you probably are looking for different things than the creator and at least some amount of the audience. Feedback is there to help the creator achieve his vision, not as a strawpoll of how many people like it and certainly not a place where he can receive hate for the effort he put in.

Honestly, if you don't accept that Thundermountain or Hightower is a DM map, then that also explains the existence of Cactus Canyon stage 2 - for that niche group who wanted to see a payload map with little focus on the objective.
 
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