What do you like about any good 'KOTH' map?

[AppleJim]

Hey there, quick question - what do you like about any good 'KOTH' map?

I'm trying to make my first map (baby steps) and I've been thinking about KOTH layout design. There's maps like Nucleus or Sawmill where you have 'free' access all around the 'hill' and then there's maps such as Viaduct, with a sorta more linear layout (spawn > spawn-yard > routes/yards > hill < routes/yards < spawn-yard < spawn). For my map, I want to incorporate the Viaduct layout. However, I'd quite like to listen to your point of view on the matter? ( i.e. What is it that keeps KOTH interesting to you? How far should the distance between spawn to spawn be? etc. etc. ) Basically I want to know what you mappers think makes a KOTH map 'tick'.

I appreciate anything that you can offer on the subject.

[grazr]

I seem to prefer KoTH maps where the point is inside a building. Possibly because there's less chance of being sniped or taking rocket spam from miles away. I dunno. It seems to force more tactical approaches and this makes things more interesting.

I've been trying to figure out how and why koth works for like a year and a half

I've discovered nothing

[The Wiggin]

Although I only have little experience mapping, I do play a fair amount of tf2 and run regular pugs etc.... based on these I think a Koth maps cap should be looked at as the mid from a 5cp, viaduct for example relies heavily on push and hold style mechanics and subsequently forces a team to work together and be co-ordinated to achieve success, nucleus on the other had is all over the shop, and heroes can win a lose games. I think good Koth maps should avoid this and encourage "team" work rather than individual moments of glory, subsequently I would personally study 5cp mid point and discover what makes them work and then try and translate this into a Koth map.

Just my opinion. Good luck with your map.

[bob+M|M+]

Regarding just the center cap point, I love a mid that is also suitable for MGE 1v1 soldier vs soldier battles, but without the great heights like the cargo boxes on granary. For example viaduct you can really maneuver around the middle rocks, peak from side to side, jump onto the rocks, peak over the rock, it gives you safety and yet you are so close to the action. Same with the boxes on the sides of the cap, you can single jump onto them. This makes playing a class like Heavy much more interesting when you can jump on things, shoot over things, and immediately fall back or push forward. Those low, jumpable obstacles make for a great part of mid.

Watch from 2:00 to 3:00 to see what I mean
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP-6tvuCuhk

[yikitama]

I Think it's mainly based on preference. Koth works the way you want it to. Nucleus is a more linear, basic "start at two ends, go in one of three directions, win" and viaduct actually has more pushback oriented design, with more dynamic play. i prefer viaduct style, but it'd be cool to see i viaduct style map with stronger flanks, maybe similar to badlands.

Ah shit, we lost a good thread here. Someone put this one back.

[yikitama]

Quote:

Originally Posted by grazr

I seem to prefer KoTH maps where the point is inside a building. Possibly because there's less chance of being sniped or taking rocket spam from miles away. I dunno. It seems to force more tactical approaches and this makes things more interesting.

You mean like harvest right?

[The Wiggin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by yikitama

You mean like harvest right?

I cant even think of any others :/ well at least others that have external areas.
Please remind me? strewth, thats sad

[Deodorant]

As I've struggled with learning proper map design by building and rebuilding a koth map, there's one question that has begun to bug me increasingly.

Why the fuck does Nucleus work?

I mean, besides being slightly spawncamp-friendly, it's a perfectly functional and enjoyable map. And yet, almost everything about the concept seems like a terrible idea by an optimistic first time mapper:

- Most of the map takes place in a giant, open room with three different height levels (four if you count the roofs that Demomen like to hang out on), all of which have sightlines to each other across the map.
- The entire middle of this room is a giant death pit.
- The control point is suspended over this death pit, and only accessible by four long, straight, completely unprotected catwalks over the pit.
- The map has basically no courtyards and compensates by having huge spawnrooms, though that's a comparatively small oddity.

So, um, yeah.. How did this end up being a decent map?