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Old 04-10-2012, 04:03 PM  
Wolfen
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Default Alpine Forest


Beta 1

This is my first release of my contest entry. it is hard to believe it was almost four months ago when I first read about this competition and started planning.

I haven't been posting images or updates due to various reasons. Mostly I didn't want to be judged...
 
Last edited by Wolfen; 05-04-2012 at 07:02 PM. Reason: Beta 3b Release
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Old 05-04-2012, 07:35 PM   #10
Wolfen
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Originally Posted by W.S Wankhouse View Post
The map also lacks any sentry spots for RED and is extremly sniper friendly, mostly because areas are usually open and linear.
I'm seriously starting to wonder if I post two different versions between here and on the Gamers with Jobs private server where I've been testing it. In fact I'm quite confused since the sentry locations they've been using were either quite obvious or in obscure places that made me proud to test with such witty people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by W.S Wankhouse View Post
Most of your map is very linear and flat, there is never any interesting space to fight on (and the hillside area is not exactly most ideal place to fight) You have also limit where players can go by spamming lots and lots of tree props, sometimes creating very narrow paths for players to use. This doesn't only eat a lot of fps, it also gets on people's way when fighting.

The detailing relies too much on propspam and not enough on brushwork and lighting.
I disagree full heartily with propspam. If an actual forest just " tree spam?" I wanted the map to look like a heavily forested area. I didn't want players to feel like they were surrounded by the usual Red and Blu corporations. To help the keep frames smooth and it not feeling too rocky I made it so that props fade in and out.

Sadly the build I put out the day of the competition closing wasn't optimized as well as I had wished. Today playing on my personal copy I get frames from 200 at the start to as low as 40 near the barn and City. With 32 players and explosions that means the frames can dip to around 20 - 30 which isn't too unusual for Valve's own payload maps from what I've seen using cl_showfps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by W.S Wankhouse View Post
\ Map itself has ambitious ideas for detailing, but it feels like we are nowhere near their full potential.
Just wanna ask, what map does? Even maps that Valve has created still sometimes need a tuneup and change for new weapons or exploits. I will admit, I'm still working on the skybox, but that is the most detailing I'm worrying about other than some of the spawn rooms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by W.S Wankhouse View Post
In the end of the day, to be fully honest.

Is it fun? Not really.
Is it good attempt at first map? Yes.
Should you continue working on it? Yes, tough layout needs some serious work.
I've had great fun on the map.

I've listened to everything they commented on as players at Gamers with jobs and fixed most of their complaints, the only one I was never able to solve was length and by the time I hit testing there were only a few areas that could be deleted.


I take your comments about first map as a compliment since it was my first time making a payload map.


And while I am going to continue working on it, I have no doubt no matter what I do to it from here on out, it won't please the mapping community.

Next time I will do better since each time a mapper makes a new map they are taking everything they learned from their last map. Be it the good or bad, how much players loved or hated it. They also take with them the knowledge and experience of how much time and effort they put into the map.

Thank you so much for your comment W.S Wankhouse. I take each comment to heart and use it in one way or another.
 
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Old 05-04-2012, 10:02 PM   #11
Wilson
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Quote:
I'm seriously starting to wonder if I post two different versions between here and on the Gamers with Jobs private server where I've been testing it. In fact I'm quite confused since the sentry locations they've been using were either quite obvious or in obscure places that made me proud to test with such witty people.
You are testing with your friends and people you know, these said people also probably don't have much experience with making balanced and good tf2 map. My friends once asked me to make script for a play, they said it was awesome, it wasn't.

Quote:
I disagree full heartily with propspam. If an actual forest just " tree spam?" I wanted the map to look like a heavily forested area. I didn't want players to feel like they were surrounded by the usual Red and Blu corporations. To help the keep frames smooth and it not feeling too rocky I made it so that props fade in and out.
I am not sure what you are trying to say. Look at your map and tell me half of the map is not covered in tree props. It is possible to make players feel like they are in a forest and not another spytech base without throwing tree props and other forest props all over the place, look at Dr. Spud's ctf_landfall or Forest map from Bullet Corps Project.

Quote:
Just wanna ask, what map does? Even maps that Valve has created still sometimes need a tuneup and change for new weapons or exploits. I will admit, I'm still working on the skybox, but that is the most detailing I'm worrying about other than some of the spawn rooms.
I think you are confusing gameplay and detailing here.

And when it comes to Valve maps, there is some ambitious ideas that have been done successfully.



Quote:
I've had great fun on the map.
Yes, YOU. I once had fun on my payload map i made sometime go, others didn't. Don't fall into trap of author bias.

Quote:
I've listened to everything they commented on as players at Gamers with jobs and fixed most of their complaints, the only one I was never able to solve was length and by the time I hit testing there were only a few areas that could be deleted.
So why are you not listening to me then? As i said earlier, your friends and people who know you have habit of thinking everything is awesome because they don't want to insult you. If you only listen to people you know, your maps are probably going to suck. I know, it sounds like a terrible thing to say, but i have yet to see really good maps come out of by testing only with people you know.

Quote:
And while I am going to continue working on it, I have no doubt no matter what I do to it from here on out, it won't please the mapping community.
If you think like this, you are never going to improve.

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Last edited by Wilson; 05-04-2012 at 10:05 PM. Reason: This post is full of typos. I shouldn't write these posts 6AM.
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Old 05-04-2012, 10:09 PM   #12
Bereth
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Originally Posted by W.S Wankhouse View Post
If you think like this, you are never going to improve.
Eh. It's a legitimate attitude. Even maps which are considered perfect often have flaws which are pointed out regularly. Badwater and Badlands are perfect examples. People love them, but people often point out their flaws.
 
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Old 05-05-2012, 10:23 PM   #13
yyler
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I'm not going to address the gameplay issues that are obvious from the screenshots. I tend to think Wilson is wrong about everything except basics, which seems to be what he's going on about.

Regardless, I wanted to let you know that fading props in and out taxes the player's computer almost as much as just leaving a prop rendered does. It's more effective to fade large props around corners or small props at large distances that don't get culled by portals than it is to just set a huge fucking forest to fade as you go through it.
 
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Old 05-08-2012, 12:46 AM   #14
Wolfen
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Originally Posted by yyler View Post
I'm not going to address the gameplay issues that are obvious from the screenshots. I tend to think Wilson is wrong about everything except basics, which seems to be what he's going on about.

Regardless, I wanted to let you know that fading props in and out taxes the player's computer almost as much as just leaving a prop rendered does. It's more effective to fade large props around corners or small props at large distances that don't get culled by portals than it is to just set a huge fucking forest to fade as you go through it.
See if someone had explained it this way I would have understood what everyone meant. I might have been messing around with the SDK and hammer for years but I know that I'm still a noob.

I don't understand half the things that go on behind the scenes yet and my only way to tell how performance was doing was by playing with 22 bots and putting on cl_showfps and watching the frames dip from 200 downwards and then judging what I needed to do from there.

Also this community as well as my teachers at Full Sail have taught me with this map that while a few sketches and ideas are good, more is better.

Keeping this in mind I've made a new rule for myself where there must be 7 sketches that show off the entire gameplay area as well as sketches of the detailing and world. This is already working for the better as one idea I thought was kinda interesting only made it to 6 sketches before I realized how tight and closed in the gameplay spaces were and how bad a map it was.


As one of my teachers said a few months ago, we all have hundreds of ideas, it takes a designer to take the hundreds of bad ideas and learn from them.
 
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Old 05-08-2012, 01:14 AM   #15
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Remember that if sketching doesn't work for you, it's not a big deal. I've never sketched a thing in my life, and my maps aren't the end-all best ever maps but they are fine. Mostly. Kind of.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. People have different workflows.

I would also advise that you not necessarily listen to groups of players that don't have a mapping or gameplay bent (ie Gamers with Jobs--I have a job, listen to me, I'm an adult). Players tend to be terrible at knowing what exactly is wrong with something (and how to fix it is another matter, often something you have to solve yourself); mappers and/or modders tend to (but not always) have a better idea. Anyone can be an armchair mapper, but just like backseat drivers, they are assholes and stupid. Forget them. Absorb the lessons of people that treat this hobby like a job and spend all their time doing it.
 
Last edited by yyler; 05-08-2012 at 01:24 AM.
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