Pinnacle

CP Pinnacle a11b

Tarry H Sruman

Large Orphanage Proprietor
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Jul 31, 2011
872
1,021
Under the guise of Redwood Peak Research and Development, Red has established a massive facility atop a mountain. They are surely using it for nefarious purposes and it must be destroyed. Fortunately, mercenaries are here to answer the call.

Pinnacle is a 3-stage Attack/Defend map in the vein of Dustbowl. The theme is based around a huge mountaintop base that Blu has to capture.

Yes, the deathpits gib. No, it isn't going away before Beta.

I'm keeping a detailed changelog, since I find that writing down my decisions helps me identify and shoot down retarded ideas before I waste time implementing them. You can read it here.
 
Last edited:

Arne

L3: Member
Nov 22, 2012
114
55
Excuse me for judging the map with only the pictures. But I think there's too much open windows in that building near the point in picture 2 and 4. Maybe close/cover 1-2 of them? Otherwise I think everything else seems to be fine to me. Inculding a picture you posted in the "Wip in a Wip"-thread.
 

Tarry H Sruman

Large Orphanage Proprietor
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Jul 31, 2011
872
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Updated to a3

Changes:
-Fixed the myriad entity issues
-Moved barriers at 2-2 to prevent defenders from walking out of spawn and directly into the deathpit
-Added a tunnel underneath the 1-1 building
-Enlarged 1-1’s cap area and reduced the cap time by 3 seconds
-Redesigned Blu’s initial spawn
-Increased Red spawn times on 1-2
-Added stage 3

Yes, this is late. I forgot to update the thread.

Feedback is appreciated.
 
Last edited:
Oct 6, 2008
1,947
445
Damn I can no longer walk out of the spawn and into a death pit? Shame on you!!
 

Tarry H Sruman

Large Orphanage Proprietor
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Jul 31, 2011
872
1,021
Updated to a4!

Changelog:
-Moved pickups around at 1-2 to favor defenders on the high ground
-Shifted the barrels before 1-2 to be slightly less favorable for sentries
-Decreased Red spawntimes at 1-2 slightly
-Opened up the building around 2-1 and added a balcony
-Moved pickups around behind 2-1 to help defenders
-Removed glass from all three windows in the building overlooking 2-1
-Heavily redesigned 2-2
-Heavily redesigned 3-2 and the area between 3-1 and 3-2
 
Sep 7, 2012
638
500
One thing I've noticed is that with the exception of stage 1, your second point is always the central focus of the point room, along with the red spawn. To some extent, I think this makes your second stage feel a bit like a final stage. If you found a way to move the red spawn so that it wasn't as central, I think it could benefit the overall feel of your map.
 
Sep 7, 2012
638
500
After the successful hold of RED on 2-2 yet again, I went over the area to see what the problem might be. My main conclusion is that there is no decent way for BLU to approach the point. Let me illustrate this with a picture:

cp_pinnacle_a4_current.jpg


The blue "X"s mark BLU's decent hold positions to set up teleporters or forward nests, for medics to build uber from, and for soldiers and demomen to spam from.
The red "X"s mark RED's potential nest positions. While few of them have cover, they are generally closer to the point and far more numerous than any of BLU's positions. Also, look how far away BLU is forced to hold from the point! This prevents BLU from ever really getting to fight on even terms, instead being reduced to spamming from the doors and dying when they rush in. I can predict that if a team ever managed to push through, it would be because they had pushed RED so far back that RED is stuck in their spawn.

In conclusion, BLU needs a closer route to the point, or at least a route that doesnt involve deathpits on either side. I think that a comfortable solution would be one where the geometry supported holding positions like this, or with similar distances:
cp_pinnacle_a4_proposed.jpg
 

RaVaGe

aa
Jun 23, 2010
733
1,210
Here ya go.

2013-02-11_00001.jpg


This area is too large the RED team is easily overcome. Cut it.

2013-02-11_00002.jpg


This staircase give a way too big advantage for the BLU, if nobody could come over here the ramp above the point could make a nice sentry nest.

2013-02-11_00003.jpg


When I was engi, I found this area clearly too poor in ammo, put a 50% ammobox here.

2013-02-11_00005.jpg


I think you should regulate more the gameplay here, BLU and RED are facing directly by every paths and this is not really fun. This one provide also a pretty sentry nest.

2013-02-11_00006.jpg


Sentry nest.

2013-02-11_00007.jpg


This area is clearly too wide and don't regulate well the players and from where they come, prevent the BLU to take this path, it will make a nice defensive position for REDs.

2013-02-11_00008.jpg


Put a staircase here, it will lead the players to the objective really fast, but it's a really dangerous path.

2013-02-11_00009.jpg


For the 2-2, it's seems like there is nothing advantageous for the BLU team, create some zone where both teams are equal.

2013-02-11_00010.jpg


It's maybe an idea to cut the sightline.

Also for the 2-2 the respawn time for the RED team was way too fast, add 5sec at least for them.

Overall the map lacks of a real flow, everyone comes from everywhere wich is not a good thing for an A/D map, regulate the paths and think more about the advantage you will give to the players by using them.
 

Trotim

aa
Jul 14, 2009
1,195
1,045

The area in the top right was being used to build uber and wait for a push, yes, but it was so open, easy to flank and hard to hold that in the end it wasn't actually a good spot. Try and get rid of some of the routes going through it, put some better pickups so an Engineer can establish a forward base, and it will be a nice (but still flankable) spot that gives BLU some height advantage before they have to go down through a valley again to attack.
 

Tarry H Sruman

Large Orphanage Proprietor
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Jul 31, 2011
872
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1. The beginning of the first stage area is deliberately difficult/nigh impossible for Red to hold. It's supposed to act as a "lobby" area for attacks into the point building. I do agree that the point itself should be a bit more defensible and I will look into it.

2. I like your idea for the bridge building at 1-2, I'll play with it in the next couple of versions. However, the barrels are already a really nasty sentry spot and I have no intention of making it worse.

3. Making the big building at 2-1 favor Red and removing the side route would probably help a lot. I've been planning major changes to that area and I'll probably incorporate that idea. The staircase idea, though, is bad. I did something similar to that in the first alpha and it was terrible. When the attackers have a route that is that much more direct than the others, they don't use anything else and just manspam it.

4. I'm working on making 2-2 better since it was the big problem area in the last test. I've already made progress on making the two flanks easier to hold and I've given the attackers a window from which they can shoot at sentries from a safe distance, but is still in a location where Red can force them out, so it isn't an invincible spam nest.
 

Sergis

L666: ])oo]v[
aa
Jul 22, 2009
1,874
1,257
cp_pinnacle_a40000.jpg


I think you should make some path leading up there, otherwise when approaching the area, getting up is rather uncomfortable which leads to best path for attacking being used less than it should.

Also note that the 2-2 layout is quite similar to that of Junction last except this is wider, but Junction has more paths :p
 

Tarry H Sruman

Large Orphanage Proprietor
aa
Jul 31, 2011
872
1,021
Updated to a5

Changelog:
-Tweaked respawn times on every point to varying degrees
-Changed pickup placement at 2-2
-Added a third floor balcony to Blu’s left route at 2-2
-Moved Blu’s right route to 2-2 forward slightly and modified the entrance
-Expanded the lower route to 2-2
-Added a side room with stairs just after 2-1 for easy access to the upper routes
-Shrunk the building overlooking 2-1 and removed its balcony

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44701628FF7E2ADCE92FE2E69EF86404BEA969B6
 

RaVaGe

aa
Jun 23, 2010
733
1,210
I'm a bit sad to see that you didn't take my feedback into consideration that much. Anyway.

121.jpg


This is a really long sightline and it probably broke the sentry nest wich is in this house, also all your exits are all on the same level, this is really boring and not really interesting like that, do a small door wich lead to the top part directly, and add a cover between the spawn and the house.

5CD70577A25E2F2F6AEE346169A279769A077708


Doing something like that is anti-gameplay, you still let the possibility to the engineer to build their sentry at the same spot, but to avoid a too much easy defence you just put an overpowered deck for the attackers. I don't think it's good, either for the REDs than the BLUs, I wouldn't like to play engineer here, knowing that you have a good sentry spot here but you can't put your sentry here because you will be fired up by soldiers/snipers without having the possibility to do something.

So no I don't like this idea, maybe you should ditch a lot of things here and start over.
 

Tarry H Sruman

Large Orphanage Proprietor
aa
Jul 31, 2011
872
1,021
Updated to a6

-Spawn and cap times adjusted by a few seconds at 1-1 and 1-2.
-Added more railings around the map’s many deathpits
-Removed one of the bridges at 1-2
-Added a small raised ledge just before 1-2
-Broke up the raised route to 1-1
-Enlarged the balcony overlooking the first yard
-Changed pickups around stage 1
-Moved one of the large boulders at 2-1 to block a sightline

Screenshots and detailed changelog available here.