Contest idea thread!

ScorpioUprising said:

If the next contest doesn't involve 5cp maps, I WILL KILL EVERYONE FOR ALL TIMES EVER!

I probably wouldn't even enter, but competitive players need new mappers desperately. This Koth contest is great, but 5cps are really the bread and butter of 6v6.

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You have to realize that your pug testing group is probably the last bastion for reliable map feedback and testing for mappers who aren't competitive players themselves. It's an amazing group, and without it all hope would be lost, seriously.
A established mapper or competitive player turned mapper could probably with some work get a comp-ish map done, but as we know there never exists more than like 5 of these people in total, at any given time. And out of those 5, only one map might get some real playtime for half a year. Then it's killed for not being badlands.

Starting a 5cp competition wouldn't change much, I doubt you'd see many comp worthy maps come out of it. Mainly because your testing group wouldn't be able to handle ALL the testing for every iteration of every map in a 6v6 environment, there needs to be more (in quantity) supportive players and testers. But the current support a unknown mapper gets from the average comp player/community is non-existent and in some cases it's even negative.
Supporting a mapper is not about shoving endless praise at them, it's about giving feedback, and it IS possible to disagree with a design decision without being a dick about it, which is something most comp communities seem to have misunderstood.

Basically, the comp scene doesn't look that desperate for new maps. As they (generalization ahoy!) keep on demoralizing or ignoring any mappers who dare attempt competitive scene mapping.
Unless of course there's a massive silent majority of "new-map-supporters" in the comp scene that no one has seen or heard of... If they're there, and desperate, they seriously need start showing themselves. Because the new-map-haters are currently winning (and have been winning for the past 5 years).

I was going to try comp mapping. But then the dynamic Payload comp came along.

Really, Ravidge said it better than I could. But I'll say some things too.

When competitive players have nothing to say other than "It's trash" or "Not Badlands" it's pretty easy to get discouraged. I don't know what you guys want, and 90% of my dealing with comp players in a map related context make me think comp players don't know what they want either. And though I haven't really dealt with comp players for anything more than making pro viaduct, I've seen them attempt to give feedback on other maps and it's dismal. I don't mean to imply that everyone needs to give amazing feedback--we certainly don't do that here or anything--but something more than 3 vague words with "idk" tacked on the end would certainly be nice.

Scorpio, your PUG group is probably the most useful thing we have for anything comp related, and I really want to thank you again for it--on behalf of all of us really. But if someone else was running it, I don't think we'd really get the feedback that we get. It takes someone that understands the engine and Hammer, like you, to filter through what comp thinks and says and feed it to us in a way that's useful and makes sense.

I sure wouldn't mind more comp-oriented maps. I think a lot of the ones that exist--like Indulge or Obscure or Follower--just leave something to be desired or are completely bad. I think maps should be able to function well in comp and in public servers, like Badlands, and be enjoyed by a wide variety of people. I'm not interested in making another huge map with a bridge for a mid and I'm not interested in making a map with barely more than a basic detail level to suit comp's misguided ideas about optimization.

I also know that many of the mapping-minded comp players there are don't think much of this site. I think that's probably fair. A lot of the people that make maps here are new, and the ones that aren't aren't concerned with comp or are burnt out. I'm pretty close to burnt out myself. On the other hand, to be perfectly frank, I don't think much of the people that map for comp. They churn out map after map and each of them seems to be abandoned one after the other, with Gullywash maybe being the exception? And few of them, if any, are playable in a public server?

If I was going to map for comp, what I would want to do is probably make a dom map like cp_standin or an SD map. Unfortunately, I don't have access to comp players that want to help with that and somehow doubt comp is interested in SD, even though I think it could really excel in that environment. I feel like even trying would result in mockery. When I read comp players talking about maps on forums or listen to them in games or god forbid talk to them about something, what they seem like is a stoned child intent on throwing a fit if they think that's what their friends would do. And that's terrible. I'm well aware that I'm no angel myself, and I am sure certain people read or watch my interactions with others and think I'm an asshole, just the way I do with comp players. The thing is that I could put that aside. I'm not sure comp can.

Like Ravidge said, if there are some people that don't hate new maps that we don't know about, please let us know. Part of the problem with how bad our maps designed for comp are probably stems from the fact that neither of our groups really network at all, and fixing that is probably the first step.

To sum it up and generalize, the competitive scene is pretty much the TF2 equivalent of the "no items, Fox only, Final Destination" crowd. And Badlands is their Final Destination.

tf2 comp mapping is just way too hard man

I tested soot with some comp players.

"There's a reason cancer exists - to prevent people from playing maps like this." is what I got from a platinum player.

I try to achieve a large audience with my maps, but man - some competitive players just act like bloody children. From both my experiences as a highlander spy and a mapper, it's just humiliating to even try getting feedback from some of these people.

You are, of course, the exception Scorpio. You and your tireless efforts to maintain that bridge between competitive players and mapping is extremely admirable. I doubt anyone here will meet your actions with anything other than appreciation.

PS - I want a pug test of sd_Congo.

csf contest

first prize gets my smoking softcap & donator

second prize gets $20 from yyler & donator

third prize gets signed 10x8 picture of mangycarface (should be first prize probably) & donator

0 entrants

Prestige said:

csf contest

first prize gets my smoking softcap & donator

second prize gets $20 from yyler & donator

third prize gets signed 10x8 picture of mangycarface (should be first prize probably) & donator

20 entries, all by prestige

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fixd

yyler said:

Maybe we'd finally get a good Venice map.

I don't think it'd make a good major contest though.

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Then maybe just have it be a no noncompetitive collaboration similar to the model packs. "TF2Maps.net Presents The World Domination Map Pack", Doesn't that have a nice ring to it.

To be honest, I'm just looking for more maps to test. If you guys don't want to cater to comp, fine don't. But I still think it would be nice to have a contest that actually promoted 5cp maps so that I'm not the only one with a finished map in the ESEA votes, thats all. If we dont' have a range of up and coming mappers working on maps that may COINCIDENTALLY interest competitive players then there isn't going to be anything to say to them or for them to say to us.

Yes, comp players are ridiculous with their general feedback and approach to map making, but that doesn't mean we should all throw our hands in the air and stop making 5cp maps. If no one is making them, then they won't get any better and no one will have any experience with what makes a good or bad 5cp map.

Sponsor one, then.

I just think it takes a certain kind of person to attempt 5cp comp mapping. In it's current state with communities, people and support.
These people can probably for themselves decide if they want to venture into that project.
If we're talking about a normal pub-ish 5cp competition then that is fine and all good. I just don't want to be in a position where I purposefully funnel mappers to a black-hole of demoralization.

In the (a)symmetry-cp contest, the majority of entries were asym-a/d instead of 5cp, I'm not sure if that is any indication of what people are more interested in. But it certainly is a reference point where we can look and see what people picked when given the choice to do almost any kind of cp map they wanted. (I was personally expecting a lot more 5cp entries)

Nothing is off the table though, we have not decided what competition to run, or when.

in my opinion, mapping for pub OR comp is wrong. just make a good map and it will cater to all playstyles. all you need for comp play is a map with a solid gameplay and interesting geometry. if your map is a solid comp map, it will be a solid pub map as well. I try to map for all playstyles at the same time and I have a great time doing so. I feel like testing for all playstyles just makes my maps better overall. w/e anyone says, a design flaw is a design flaw no matter the playstyle. competitive testing (being much less forgiving when it comes to making a layout work) helps getting much more solid layouts. I may be wrong but the way I see it, a good map plays well in 6s, hl or pubs. there is okay maps and then there's good maps. sadly I feel like this community is geared toward okay maps.

I'd wish to see the community step it up a little but I understand not everyone is ready to commit to that. to each his own goals

For me 5cp are only for comp or only for pub in fact, look at granary, it's just a pain in the ass to play this map in pub, chokes everywhere, and the players are just blocking them each other between their chokes.

The only thing wich can fix that is to add more paths, and it's not playable in comp because the playstyle is way more based on blocking the other team on the choke and wait ubers/huge advantage, and if you have too many paths, it's impossible to prevent the scouts to do a ninja cap or kill your med by the back, thus it's impossible to etablish a strategy, and nobody like when it's not working how it must do.

So why not try an alliance with the ETF2L to do a 5cp comp mapping contest.

That's the other thing. Their idea of what makes a good map is so different from casual players' idea of what makes a good map that they might as well be playing a completely different game. Produce a map that the comp people like, and it will only be comp people playing it.

Maybe the real solution is for some mod team to just produce a new game geared towards the sort of people who play TF2 6v6 24-hour Badlands, and get them to play that instead, so it won't matter to either group what the other thinks anymore.

csf vs SD vs dynamic koth contest plzzz or something

i wont enter more than 3 entries i promise
also both pubs/comp kind of enjoy both modes i think??? what tf2 should be, back in 2007 when comp played dustbowl and there were no unlocks to ban. so many different ways to play tf2 nowadays.

stevethepocket said:

Their idea of what makes a good map is so different from casual players' idea of what makes a good map that they might as well be playing a completely different game. Produce a map that the comp people like, and it will only be comp people playing it.

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that's a load of bullshit to me. I would even argue that most of the time, it's the pub players that might as well be playing a completely different game (mariocart and minecraft maps to name a few...). and of course you don't see a single pub server playing viaduct, gravelpit or badlands, those are comp exclusive. I don't know man but I think your argument is completely invalid. good maps are good maps no matter the playstyle and I stand by that.

also @ravage granary being a launch map makes it a bad example imo. but it does play fine on a 24 man server. and you know, some comp players are sick of holding/pushing chokes, but the geometry of granary is interesting enough that it makes the chokes bearable.

Prestige said:

csf vs SD vs dynamic koth contest plzzz or something

i wont enter more than 3 entries for each gametype i promise
also both pubs/comp kind of enjoy both modes i think??? what tf2 should be, back in 2007 when comp played dustbowl and there were no unlocks to ban. so many different ways to play tf2 nowadays.

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fixd again

fubarFX said:

and of course you don't see a single pub server playing viaduct, gravelpit or badlands, those are comp exclusive.

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Nope. All the casual servers I've played in love those maps. I think you're confusing "pub" with 24/7 2fort/Orange/Achievement_idle servers. Those people are playing a completely different game.

yes, that was sarcasm. good maps cater to all playstyles